In Navarre you have had a hard split in Podemos. How do you feel?

I'm sad about what happened, sad about it. The hard struggle we have had in the parliamentary group has distanced us greatly from people. My former colleagues have not lived up to this historic era; we have to be at the service of the change that we live in Navarre and not at the service of possible “personal ethics”. We can and change have done tremendous damage to them.

Wouldn't it be smarter to admit separation and operate each in your box?
Yes, of course, and I have defended it in the last year and a half. But we had some limits, especially those relating to money, as the Chamber of the Courts does a check on the money that Podemos receives. We have offered them the means to act as a group, but the control of money we had to have, because they control it is Podemos. They wanted to go to a regular account of their group, but that's not possible.

But today Parliament has blocked the money it has to give to the group.
No, Parliament does not trust that the money goes into two accounts and calls for the consensus of the whole group so that that money goes into one place, because that money will have a responsible person. But we have not agreed in the group, because we can't allow it to do anything with the money it deserves, because it's public money.

They have said that they are prepared to allocate this money to social groups, to NGOs, to the investigation of tax fraud… Tere Saez, of your group, has also agreed to this. What do you say?
It is very nice, but it is made for the elections. The Financial Controller clearly states that it is goodwill, but that public money for one particular function cannot be used for another, but for misuse.

There is talk of the officialists – you – and the critics – they. You continually call transfusions to the other four. Hasn't it been a division within Podemos?
No, there are no divisions. Here there were elections for the general secretariat of Podemos, the former secretary-general lost and did not accept. I also had to ask for an audit of the electoral process, but it has never done so. I do not believe that this responds to a social divide. More than that is a personalistic problem. In the first Citizen Council of the party, Laura Pérez was the secretary general and I was the secretary of the organization, I have followed everything very closely. I'm not critical or official, I'm from Podemos. I saw what could come in those primary latents and proposed two lists one, but they didn't want one or the other. We have a unitary candidature for the elections, with Laura [Pérez] and with [Eduardo] Santos there are people who showed up, Joan Bosch is also there... this is a problem that we have overcome internally.

We have talked about these elections, those of Orain Bai put one of the sources of the problem there, say that in those primary schools a fraud was committed, that the telematics system controlled by Madrid blocked the vote of many people, much more than the 28 votes that Santos brought to Pérez. You were the secretary of the electoral process. The same system that dismissed
Laura Pérez as Secretary General of Podemos Euskadi was in charge of dismissing her. This system is not controlled from Navarra, it is audited and anyone can request the election data. External audit can also be requested, but it has not been carried out. If complaints are not credited with the data, they have no date. In the election of Laura, he obtained 1,300 votes and two years later, with the general secretariat and the Basque Parliament, he obtained more than 500 votes. In two years he lost 800 votes and was defeated by Eduardo Santos, from Madrid. They put the case on 28 votes, but the most important thing for me is that after two years of very important management of Laura was not elected by her party colleagues.

Is there a political difference between Orain Bai and Podemos?
I do not think so, but from now on more and more differences will be sought to promote an election that is not ours. We signed a programmatic agreement together, there was 80 percent of our electoral program, and we set up a government with it. It wasn't our government program, but we've made progress since realism. Maximalist policies are now being promoted, leading Baiko to the blockade. The government has done a good job and today it is almost impossible to go further.

It says that 80% of the Podemos program has been accomplished. What else could you do?
In the area of development cooperation, a number of issues have not been met and that has been painful. We had a commitment of 0.5% and we reached almost 3%. The commitment of the entire government has been lacking. We have drafted the Law on the Subjective Right to Housing, 500 homes have been tendered… but in this legislature the evictions of those who were on rent have doubled and public resources have not responded at all to this situation. We have also raised the Environment Act, but it will no longer come out. Primary care has improved in health, but we have not managed to consolidate it; waiting lists in health have been improved, but we also know how, through agreements with private centers like San Juan de Dios. We have pushed for a change in the industrial model, strengthening the social economy. PRESIDENT. — The next item is the report (Doc. Territorial decentralisation and much greater diversification of production are needed. We have also fallen short with some taxes.

In the field of the game of change, 17 of the 26 Members are from the left. Was that not going to bring more left-wing management? Couldn't you put more pressure on all of the above gaps?
We've pushed a lot, a lot, and every week. GEROA Bai, and in particular the PNV, have looked a lot at the Navarre right and from our point of view it was necessary to play more free, without looking so much at the opposition. We have pushed a great deal, we have risen several times from the negotiating table, but we have acted with loyalty, because otherwise we could put a historical moment on its feet. We have reached the place where he has been able.

Does it not happen on many occasions that the institutional dynamics eat the social dynamics? Perhaps it is the Podemos itself that was created in the whirlwind of the M15 that proves it.
I do not agree with this analysis. In the mirror of that historic age of 11M we see later on 8 March or the movement of pensioners. We can bring the demands of society to the institutions, but unfortunately, in this society the market commands more than the institutions. We come to the legislature and we have to seize the opportunities in Parliament.

There have been many changes in this legislature on the subject of the Basque Country, but there has also been a significant degree of despair in the area of the Basque Country, not ending the zoning established by the Law of the Basque Country.
I understand that despair. We came from the repression of the Basque Country denounced in Europe and elsewhere, and we have at least risen to the demands of the law.

Are you in favour of putting an end to zoning? This is
the debate we have held in this parliamentary term. Zoning is perverse, it does not reflect the current language map and it has to be adapted, and it has to be seen to what extent it has to be completely disposed of. We bring the end of zoning into our program.

Yes, but at specific times of the legislature it has been seen that on Podemos and Left-Ezkerra there were internal visions other than this tema.Fue a report in which it was found that it is not enough to suspend zoning, that it must be sown and that the linguistic rights of Navarre citizens must be taken
into account. It is with these raw materials that the future Basque Law should be elaborated. The right has used Euskera as a weapon, with enormous force, and in two areas, above all employment and territory. Let us see how we can deal with this, because Navarre society is totally misled by the issue of Euskera.

This law excludes vasco-speakers in Navarre, which is why the Basque movement calls for the suspension of zoning.
Yes, but then? At the moment we found it good that the issue was debated, but the rest remains for the next legislature.

How are the accounts going to come out in May for change, especially if you are divided?
We must unite and delude all those who have been exhilarating about our project. On the other hand, for years UPN has only acted to the right, but today the right is distributed and that favors us. Seeing the success that the extreme right is having, I think that is going to get people out of the left to vote, both in Spain and in Navarre. And when there's a lot of participation, the left wins.

PHOTOGRAPHS: Josu Santesteban