Where did you get the idea of writing a book with Tasio?

On the one hand, I saw it necessary to write a book that would repeat the cases of corruption in the Basque Country. Not only in the Basque Autonomous Community, but in Navarra during the mandate of UPN we have had the CAN case; one of the former lehendakaris of Navarra, Gabriel Urralburu, has been in jail and another, Javier Otano, almost both of the PSN. Looking at what's been, what's there and what's going to be sure, there's enough reason to make a book. On the other hand, I wanted to make a pedagogical book, and taking advantage of my friendship with Tasio, I proposed to do something clear and graphic without too many texts.

The book presents 35 cases, of which at least four are currently open.

Among them, I would highlight the case of De Miguel. A total of 26 members of the PNV are charged by the commission of commissions of 4 per cent assigned to them. Contacts with the prosecutor's office are currently under way. The businessman who brought the case to light denounced that he had been wanted to extort and that he had been arrested. All this was done by Alavés Alfredo De Miguel from the Provincial Council of Álava and through the official email. The cases of school canteens and fraud in Osakidetza are also open, and I would say that many important things are still going to come to light.

Cases related to Bidegi and TAV are also open.

As for the Bidegi case, the judge has a period of five years to carry out the investigation. When we investigated this case, we thought we only started breaking the skin. A EUR 30 million hole. The average cost overruns on the roads that have been built in Gipuzkoa have been between 35% and 40%, a level that is not seen in the Spanish State. If the judge has taken such a hard job, I would say that there is reason to investigate. As for the case of the TAV, the book contains statements by Xabier Arzallus on a meeting in the Spanish Ministry of Development on the works of the TAV, and we believe they will give something to say. We also have the case of the Gipuzkoa incinerator.

In the preamble to the book, Larraitz Ugarte says that we talk a lot about corruption in the Spanish State, but here we are all silent. What corruption is there?

I do not know if it can be compared to what we have seen in Spain. But I know it exists and that functioning is the same here and there. For example, compared to the case of 3% in Catalonia, the PNV has a similar way of functioning. In the case of De Miguel, we have seen this clear. Moreover, in the latter case, Catalan entrepreneurs are involved. However, when something comes out here, we are told that a case is nothing more than an anecdote.

Are the models repeated?

The fraud of the Osakidetza test in 1990 was a mass and organized fraud of a similar nature. 28 years later, the operation is the same. At that time it was organized for the friends of PSOE and UGT, and now for the friends of the PNV. Modus operandi is repeated, for example, in the cases of De Miguel and Slot Machines. After 30 years, we go back to the same point. That is why, in order to understand what is happening now, it is important to investigate well what has happened in the past. There are a lot of dynamics that imply the requirement of commissions for the party, both by UPN, PSN and PNV. That’s why I was fascinated to talk about “Oasis Vasca”, because here too we’ve had a lot of things. In such cases, action must be taken without any complexes. When it comes to publishing a number of cases of corruption, I see them with some complex political parties. And not only with cases of corruption, but also with ways of acting.

Can it be said that it is widespread that the parties in the governments ask for commissions?

Care must be taken with generalisation. But in Gipuzkoa, for example, after 35 years ruled by the same party, a concrete form of action has been taken. They create customer networks: the same media, local companies with Basque label, state companies, lawyers, parties and politicians are defending these injustices. They keep the business and the party in government, and in return, they award works, jobs, etc. It's these companies. We have seen that irregular awards have been made in works where there were overruns.

It is stated in the book that many politicians and businessmen have previously agreed on certain overruns, then have disappointed the work of that company and, finally, at the end of the work, distribute these false overruns between the two.

That was what we realized in the Bidegi case. In 2011, when Bildu arrived at the Gipuzkoa Council, he found that corrupt form that worked for years. In the written book on the Bidegi case, the emails that the construction companies sent to the politicians were published. In those messages, without any embarrassment, the extra cost had to be what the businessmen said to Bidegi. Speaking to the workers of the works of Bidegi, we were told that the employers had seen the bottles of champagne on the works. Then, they always separate. Cases come to light when one of the two receives less than the other, or when an honored person enters.

So, do you understand corruption in relation to the management model?

I am sometimes much more interested in the form of management than in specific cases of corruption. Customer networks and corruption cases move in this management model and that makes it possible. Agreeing on the cost overruns and distributing the money is linked to the lack of control mechanisms. In order to put an end to this problem of corruption, the control mechanisms must first be put in place. The VAT overruns and the cost overruns we have seen in the cases of Bidegi, which exceed 15% and 20%, have been considered normal here for years. Consideration of these overruns as normal is dangerous. In De Miguel’s case, the businessman was told by email that he knew he “had to go through the box.” In view of the ways of speaking, this entrepreneur came to the conclusion that many people had done the same. These are the ways of working in our “Oasis Vasca”.

Seeing that there have been few convictions in all these years, what do you think is the attitude of the judicial system towards corruption?

On the one hand, I would say that the judicial system has acted with a little bit of disregard in the cases we have described. Many cases have gone too long, and some have even prescribed. All this calls into question the position of the judicial system with regard to these cases. On the other hand, the resources available to judges are also scarce: we have no anti-corruption prosecutor’s office. In the case of Bidegi, Bildu requested the cooperation of the Civil Guard to carry out the investigation, since the Ertzaintza alleged that it had no capacity to investigate such cases. Under this impunity, all this corruption has grown, and I think it is time for things to come to light.