On June 3 we present the Orain Presoak dynamic in Bilbao. How did you end up here giving your face and why?

F. Arrieta: When they approached me to inform me of the initiative, I found it interesting for the moment, for the people and for the dynamics that could be generated in the environment. What we are advocating is not new to me, I have always thought about it, but the initiative has now pushed me to take the step of expressing myself publicly.

S. Majarenas: I have been on the street for two months and I am anxious about this situation. When I was given the opportunity to participate, I said yes, because I feel identified and I believe that in order to take the steps that need to be taken in the new phase, civil society must be involved in a broad way. We need the commitment of the whole of society, not the few, and here the demands of the whole of society are united.

Several well-known people have joined you in the initiative. We have recently seen the important role of civil society in Ipar Euskal Herria in the disarmament of ETA. Is the fight for the rights of Basque prisoners in the hands of civil society?

S. Majarenas: In Lapurdi, Baja Navarra and Zuberoa we have been given the example of Christ, they have taken a great step forward. Here and now, the key to prisons is not ours, but if society says what we want, with clear cries, I believe that steps will be taken in that direction.

F. Arrieta: Everything is complementary. In our case, I am clear that the process is more important than the mobilization we are organising. And within the process, I would differentiate between starting, empowering and implementing what you call civil society, on the one hand, and on the other, putting this issue on the agenda and disseminating it in society. Unfortunately, for many reasons, the issue of prisoners is not among the first concerns of Basque society and we have to socialise there. The steps that institutions and parties can take along this road must go hand in hand. What we are doing is chess work, and for that the mobilisation of 20 October will be important.

In the statement you make four requests. Some of them are old voices, others seemed more recent to me. The first of these, which could be evident, is the end of the dispersal of prisoners.

F. Arrieta: Legislation was taken as an exceptional measure. As for human rights, there is no reason to do so, and furthermore, the conditions that were previously argued do not have them to justify the situation. We are calling for an end to the dispersion, not because it is the time, because it has always been the time. Now, moreover, that argument of the armed struggle has also disappeared. It is a very widespread opinion in Basque society and we too join it. It has to end.

S. Majarenas: There is no excuse. It is an added punishment that applies to family members. To denounce it, dynamics such as that of children with backpacks have been created. In addition, as a prisoner it is hard to be far away, it is hard to see what their relatives have to suffer.

Severely ill prisoners. Literally, you say: “Before a few days of life, sick prisoners have the right to be properly cared for here and now.” What do you mean by that?

S. Majarenas: Of course they have to release sick prisoners. This is also within the law. The situation is serious, some have recently died inside and others have a few days left.

F. Arrieta: Who and how does he decide what the few days are? The fact that this debate is being held is also very serious. We must work together in the definition of ethics and human rights. We put mankind on the table and call for legality to be applied.

They also call for an end to the sum of the penalties. For those who do not know much about the issue, what is going on with the sanctions?

S. Majarenas: When you serve a sentence in one state, in another state you cannot be punished again for the same matter. In Hego Euskal Herria, illogically, that is what happens. I think it is one of the few sites in Europe. There are prisoners who have served their sentences in France and when they are transferred to Spain they are again punished for the same crime. The appeal against the judgment of the Supreme Court has already been launched in Strasbourg. If they were right, a large number of prisoners would go to the streets. And again, within legislation, because that's what the law says.

F. Arrieta: Faced with exceptional legislation, we call for the application of case-law that should be unitary in Europe. We don't ask for anything weird, although for some it seems to be. If Spain complied with its law, it would take a giant step on an important issue that remains to be resolved in the Basque Country conflict. They must abandon the emergency legislation.

It is noted that the four claims have in common to demand the cessation of the application of the emergency legislation. The fourth demand is the extinction of the first grade.

S. Majarenas: In the Spanish State there are some 50,000 prisoners, of whom 300 are in the first grade, and 180 are Basque political prisoners. More than half. The majority of Basque political prisoners are in the first grade. The data I heard from Iñarritu the other day seemed to me mind-boggling, I didn't know I was in jail.

What is being in first grade in jail? What would it mean to end it?

S. Majarenas: Living conditions are much harder, you're in isolation. The law says that the first grade applies in exceptional cases, to prisoners of "misconduct", when very violent conflicts occur. This is not the case for Basque political prisoners, but systematically for all of them. This is very damaging, as there can be no progress of degree. In the second grade, for example, permits can be requested and, as the law says, there may be an evolution towards the third step. And once there, we could start talking about other measures. In my particular case, I was in the first grade, and then, when they took us to the apartment of Alcobendas (Madrid), they took me in the second grade, there is more flexibility. On the road to coexistence, on the road to the prisoners' return home, there must be a change of degree.

It is unthinkable that human rights should be talked about and that prisoners should be in isolation for 20 years, in a much smaller place, with many hours less of a patio.

Now on the list of accessions to the Prisoners campaign are two former ediles of the PSE and the PSN. Does it help to extend the accessions from a humanitarian point of view, and not from a political point of view?

F. Arrieta: It should have been. They're different planes. The work that can be done with society and with society is one. Now we've come together to dedicate ourselves to this, and hopefully we've been more attached. This should also be supported by other processes. That agreement in the Basque Parliament, the words of the Spanish Government President Sánchez... go in the right direction, we shall see how far they go. On a political level, this is going to have a way, and on a social level we have to try to open it up.

Since the President of the Spanish Government has changed, movements are under way. What smell?

F. Arrieta: Hopeful. I often said that if one day he approached the prisoners he would have to be with a conservative government, because the pp is much worse in the opposition than in the government. That can no longer happen. The Government seems to have the will to take steps. Prudence will be necessary and we will have to see what attitude pp adopts. Sémper once said that they would be willing to take steps, but the pp is now in conflict with speeches with Citizens.

S. Majarenas: We must move from words to deeds. I'm afraid to think it's an electorate. It has made it public and this news has gained importance among people. The road is being prepared. Grande-Marlaska has said on more than one occasion that “no dust rises with this issue.” I look at them prudently. We must not forget that we are talking about the people inside and in a broad environment. All the hope that has been sold and that has not been fulfilled has made me very harsh for years.

On October 20, you are organizing a demonstration. You have called him “the greatest manifestation ever made in this country”...

F. Arrieta: As I said before, size is not so important, but the road. If we are able to activate the people and sectors that have not been activated until now when we arrive at the Bilbao demonstration, that will be the most beautiful result. Then, for the 40,000 or 60,000 or 100,000 that are at the demonstration, it's not that important.

S. Majarenas: I think we want to say a great deal even in broad terms.

F. Arrieta: In other words, we have to make strength in plurality. Of course, I want it to be massive, that my words do not serve for demobilisation.

S. Majarenas: Now in the dynamic Prisoners we say that the time has come to untie the knot, which has long been needed. Now is the time when we all come together and say out loud. We need it to become a healthy people. Other things too, but this too.