How did you receive the Argia Award?

Amazement and joy. We usually associate the Argia Awards with the media and it was a joy to see how you have valued the communicative work we are doing.

Public institutions and feminist movements have begun to work together in recent times. Has that been a milestone?

The milestone I do not know, but it is essential. It is true that today equality seems to have become fashionable. Sometimes I have the feeling that we live in the fascination of feminism and that it is now very easy to support feminism, but I think it is very important to be honest and remember that it has been the feminist movement that has been denouncing sexist aggressions for decades.

It is true that until recently there has been a certain breakdown between the institutions and the feminist movement. Organizations are just a tool, but it's a very effective tool, so we work together better for everyone.

How is this collaboration articulated?

As for the work to prevent Sanfermin’s attacks, the City Hall and the representatives of the movements formed the group ‘Sanferminetan on equality’, where the campaign was designed. The limitations and opportunities of both organizations and feminist movements must be known and respected. That is the starting point.

In general, what is the role of the Equality Area and LGTBI?

The Plan for Equality of Pamplona 2016-2022 is our roadmap. It is structured in four areas. The first is a political commitment for the governance and equality for the internal functioning of the City Hall; the second is the empowerment of women and the promotion of the change of values; the third is related to the tasks of care, co-responsibility and centrality of life and the fourth to violence. Each year we draw up an operational plan to carry it out. To do so, the team was expanded two years ago and we went from being a technician to three.

And this year, what do you have in your hands?

We have jobs in four areas. Not everything can be counted, but, for example, we have an LGTBI line and we are now making the first diagnosis of Pamplona. Our goal is not only to achieve equality between men and women, but to make all existing inequalities visible, and for this we have studies underway.

We will continue to work with the historical memory to make known the women who have been in Pamplona and who can be referents. We have a working group for the recovery of women’s historical memories called “Iruñea naming women”, in which workers from different areas of the City Hall, historians and representatives of women’s groups participate. We have recently made several videos, including Remigia Etxarren Aranguren, Pamplona’s founder and Rita Aguinaga Viliato, the first female singer of the Orfeón Pamplona.

What is equality?

Equality is not uniformization. Guaranteeing the same rights, treatment and opportunities from personal diversity is equality for all people. It would be an attempt to put an end to the asymmetrical power relations that exist in all areas. Eliminate the privileges of some to guarantee the rights for all. I believe that we have managed to broaden that meaning of the word equality and that feminism is another of the challenges we now have in the conceptual framework. Still for some, this word has stigma.

Still disturbing?

Yes. I'd like to believe it's because of ignorance, but it's not. We're often told that we have to do pedagogy, but feminists have been doing pedagogy for 200 years, and resistance is still there. We have accepted to our speech a lot of concepts that we did not know before. It's not ignorance, it's resistance. Resistance to questioning of the private space and fear of a real commitment to transformation in the public sphere.

Does pedagogy belong to the public that is now used everywhere?

Yes, and with it paternalism. Many times they tell us that we also have to change the ways, because we seem to be angry. Yes, it is true, we are angry. We are half the population and they still say ‘women’s collective’, as if we were a group.

We must be honest with the concepts. For example, the word patriarchy. Until recently, it was very rare to hear in the political discourse. One of the two: either that public representative was very feminist or he was very ruthless. Now, some concepts are gradually being introduced in this type of discourse, and this has its symbolic importance.

Is being fashionable now good or bad?

Some believe that feminism loses the subversive burden that a person like Penélope Cruz can have if he uses it in his discourse, but on the other hand we always say that equality has to enter the political agenda. Feminism has to be everywhere, so I don't feel uncomfortable when I hear that Penelope Cruz is a feminist.

But in society, especially among young people, great setbacks are often seen.

This is what happens to many social achievements. We tend to believe that accomplishments are completely linear and we move forward, but that's not true. In the workplace, for example, look at what steps have been taken. Today, we are concerned about youth. Today's youth has grown into formal feminism, into the fascination of equality. We, on the contrary, had some alarms on and identified behaviors that might be related to the difference, but our alarms no longer serve. We must adapt to the times. Today's young people have a serious identification problem. We believe that in some fields it is enough for boys and girls to be together, but that is not the case. When we talk about affective relationships, for example, we're clear about what damage romantic love causes, but I think we haven't been able to build other referents, other possibilities. If you tell a young man that what he's doing is wrong, but if you don't give him alternatives, or you don't give value to the alternatives that they're building, something fails.

What hurts your belly?

It bothers me to see how easily the speeches and ideas that have been built with a lot of work are delegitimized. The tendency to always judge women is also enormous, or the discourse there is about motherhood. Today, for example, essentialist discourses are widely disseminated, such as the new conception of good eco-mother (breastfeeding without age limits, natural growth…). I believe that these do not take account of our material and economic conditions.

You are a feminist and mother of three children. What does it mean when it says that motherhood must be politicized?

We have to be a lot more aware of the impact that motherhood has on our lives. We have to see what needs to be done with care. What is at the heart is a very old but very topical concept: the division of labor according to sex. As long as that stays, everything else doesn't matter.

We need to talk not only about private life and public life, but also about intimate life. Women mix intimacy and privacy as a domestic space in which we dedicate time to housework and care, to do sport, to develop our education, to carry out our hobbies and militant actions, etc. The problem is that many times we give priority to housework, to care work, they eat most of the time and from there come other consequences: tiredness, health problems, frustrations... It would be good to strengthen our own space and value the great influence that this has on our public environment.

What is the decalogue you have prepared for the media?

The 2016 sanfermines violation was a turning point in society’s reaction to this aggression. At that time, we saw the need to give the media a number of channels of guidance so that they can take note of the news about the sexist aggressions. After a process of reflection with them, we developed and disseminated a decalogue.

It says, for example, that the sexist aggressions are not isolated facts, that the identity of the victims must be protected over journalistic or informative interests, that processes of re-victimization must be avoided, that the opinions of experts must be sought as complementary information and not of anyone on the street, etc. We understand that the media must be our allies, but we see that they have a contradictory attitude, whether they are left-wing, right-wing or mentality.

It's amazing how some media outlets, for example, continue to give images of the 2014 txupinazo in which girls appear half-naked. Those images are old, but to them five. It seems that the story is made beforehand and that they will not allow a new reality to change.

Steps have also been taken in the programming and participation has been encouraged so that women are more and more the protagonists of the festival, but the images that are disseminated in the media continue to show the boy as the protagonist, in the enclosures, getting drunk… and the woman, or does not appear or presents herself as an object.

Many times we've tried to talk about this with them, but there's no way. I don't think we invented it. Sensationalism sells a lot, it affects when it's patriarchate and you have to make profound and structural changes.

Is yours the least criticized municipal land?

Maybe, but I think it's because it's poorly seen to speak out against equality. I am convinced that many do not know what we are doing. In any case, we have had criticism. After the Sanfermines, for example, almost every day opinion articles appeared that made us afraid of the citizens.

What would you like to look into if the legislature of change had continuity?

With regard to the City Hall’s internal governance, I believe that the internal procedures and procurement clauses should be amended. This can have consequences for the future. In addition, we must continue to deepen the direction we have and try to make the steps that are taken irreversible. Another challenge is to change the image of the party. Leisure has to give other values and think a lot about the massification, the impact it has on the city, the participation of children, the elderly and in general the people who stay on the margins, in the image of women… Many things.