The policy of the City of Vitoria-Gasteiz. You took the mayor of pp, Javier Maroto, and you put the mayor of PNV, Gorka Uraran. Didn't you regret the decision?

By no means. EH Bildu is the only guarantee that pp will withdraw from the Basque institutions. The expulsion of the City Hall was fundamental to ending the xenophobic and racist message of Maroto. We promised it and complied with it. It was logical that our group managed the mayor's office, but the PNV was unwilling. However, it was very important to give the opportunity to the PNV and also to change, and the step taken by the forces that supported it has been the right one. It wasn't just us, so did the Elkarrekin Podemos and Irabazi groups. The PSE-EE surrendered to the pressure of pp and detached itself from this opposition group, which refused to negotiate. We in the opposition are working in line with the 3 March initiative.

Some alternative critical sectors say that their evolution is “metamorphic”, which in short “do a policy similar to the PNV and the PP”. What is your view on this?

The elimination of Maroto does not mean that all the consequences have been successful, but it has served to achieve many things. For example: in the beginning, the socialist party was left out of government and Uraran began working with the forces of change. That made it possible to draw the first budgets, with a two-thirds majority in favour. We place the budgets in the direction of change: for housing, for equality and for the Basque… It is true, Uraran has not complied with what was signed. But we have made it clear among those of us who can make the change. The rest [PNV and PSE] have set their own interests before the change. Two years later, the PNV has not managed to push through the budgets.

These sectors may say that “we knew that all this was going to happen.” I mean, the right governs.

Yes, but Uraran does not agree with pp in Vitoria-Gasteiz. The pp does not forgive Uraran what he has done to Maroto. The PNV works with the support of the PSE, but it is not enough. The PNV is practically alone. What it seeks is to strengthen power. And in politics, you have to make that appear, not just say, "That's what we knew." The lack of democracy has become apparent, and we have shown that with the PNV change is not possible. Of course, we will have to open up other paths, we are working on what we had proposed at the beginning, that is, walking with all those who want change. Uraran is not only against change, but also against different groups, who are not prepared to hear more demands. The option of change has been feasible in this territory, EH Bildu has reached out to all non-popular parties to carry it out, including Podemos and Irabazi. That road between Anitz is possible, but PNV and PSE do not want.

What is the transfer policy in the Economic Activity Tax of Vitoria?

For example: just start Uraran agreed on tax policy with Alaveses Entrepreneurs (SEA). In the photo came the PNV, the pp and the PSE with the employers, saying that they were going to lower taxes. The administration cannot – or should not – agree with the administration of tax policy, but they do. Our aim has been to break the agreement. In 2017 Uraran needed the votes of Podemos, Irabazi and our group. We are therefore forced to break that agreement and to make taxes more horizontal. We have managed to get closer to the level of taxes at Donostia and Bilbao, we have managed to introduce in the budgets a million and a half euros that entrepreneurs did not pay and that companies pay more with the same values as the Real Estate Tax (IBI-IBI). We have managed to carry out interesting left-wing approaches in favour of this city.

He explains some of them.

In school segregation the PSE has been involved, we have worked on a project with experts. Then, in fact, the Department of Education of the Basque Government does not apply it. But at least, we've brought out the issue of school segregation. We have shown that the problem can be solved. In politics, you can't think you'll do it all, you see the limitations on the journey and who you can join to solve problems with. On the other hand, in the negotiation of this year's budgets we wanted to dignify the salaries of municipal workers. Many charge EUR 800 per month. We have put at the table the minimum of the social charter coming from Europe: EUR 1,200. Uraran was not willing to admit it. If we accept that our fellow Members earn EUR 800, what future do we have? They do not want to be paid better for the provision of services from the City Hall, and then they ask in Parliament the employers who pay the workers’ wages.

What is the essence of your budgets?

It's based on several columns. One, employment: we are working on the cases of subcontracts for municipal workers, we have marked the route in the cases of homes, pools and emergency responders, and we have achieved several achievements. This year’s budget is EUR 17 million more than last year and workers have not been given part. You can't do everything for a moment, but you can do it in parts. Two, equality: the approach to male violence must take into account prevention. That is what we are demanding from the earliest budgets. Because when something serious happens, we are all behind the banner, but not to take steps. Three, Basque: In 2015 it seemed possible to develop the Kafe Antzokia project in Vitoria-Gasteiz, but the PNV has paralysed it. It's sad, but Uraran will do less than Maroto.

“There’s no report that says Errekaleor needs to be taken down,” you say. What happens?

There is no technical report necessary for the demolition of buildings. In the Errekaleor district there are some deficiencies, but in many other neighborhoods of Vitoria-Gasteiz, and no one says that the buildings in those neighborhoods should be demolished. For example, there is a report on Santo Domingo Street. Due to the gravity of the situation, the neighbours have had to be evicted, so their location is being studied. There's nothing like that in Errekaleor, and Uraran wants to throw them out. They are excuses, the only reason for destroying them is political. The property of the neighborhood is municipal and the agreement is also. The project is interesting. Let us say, when they develop in Berlin, they applaud themselves from here, but some Errekaleor believe that this is not the right one.

From the Basque policy: The PNV has chosen PSE and pp as fellow travellers to reach an agreement.

It's really worrying to see who the PNV works with, to begin with, it's not looking at society. Urkullu often talks about “stability,” we call it “impasse,” he is losing many opportunities in this country because Urkullu does not have the ability to look forward, it is important to keep where he is. What he's doing is talking to pp and PSE, who don't want change. He is very comfortable in Madrid to reach an agreement with Rajoy. Here, the educational community is on the street, attacked by the trade union majority. It is not prepared to engage in dialogue with the social partners or to reach agreements; on the contrary, it is comfortable with the most conservative sectors. The policy of the PNV is very wrong for the future of this society.

Globalisation seems to make it difficult to change the direction of politics. Most Basque institutions are managed by the PNV, pp and PSOE, among others. How do we influence society to make other kinds of policy?

In part, the institutions reflect what is in society. However, an important part of society faces in the street. It's about knowing what our capacity for influence is in society. You said globalisation, for there are other social realities in the world where politics does not work as here. This is very clear: Urkullu always compares the Basque situation with the Spanish one. In this comparison it feels strong, “we are a little better than in Madrid”, he says. But Madrid, compared to many others, is getting worse and worse. In this respect, we need to offer society a solid alternative and communicate it well. There are options. If we do so properly, we will have the support of broad sections of society. We are often criticized, and rightly so, because we often spend too much time criticizing what the PNV does. So we have to explain what we do right and pick up what people have to say. In fact, politics is turning to polarisation at the international level, there are some deficit keys, a democratic one, as we have seen in Catalonia. Another is to show where the power is right. To a large extent, power wants politics to be even more isolated from society. Democratize power.

You seem to see the opportunity.

Of course. But our concerns and those of society must be linked: the labour market, the economy ... In this sense, many competent people who are not in the spaces of power or in the institutions are working, and we have to listen and collect those alternatives. Our goal is to bring about a more advanced society between different parties.

How did you see the procés? How has he seen Basque politicians in art?

We're all portrayed. Urkullu's picture has been clearer, but it has become clear that he does not want to change the status quo. He is very comfortable in the present situation and has chosen to maintain it. The Catalans have highlighted the lack of democracy in the Spanish State, but they have also made clear the importance of being fellow travellers at both national and international levels and working with the people. Imagine for a moment that there are parties here that we agreed to take steps in favour of independence. If the people and/or society are not in those keys, the consensus would be almost null. That is why the power and the ability to decide must be restored to the people. There are major shortcomings here that we have to work on.

The way in which the report on self-government works will be clarifying.

The Basque Government Sociometer states that 67% of Basques are in favour of the right to decide. It is a large majority, two-thirds of it. However, we are cautious. Although two-thirds think that, if you work on the paper, you make a new proposal to the people, but if you then choose “yes” or “no”, this exercise will be very short. What does society demand of us in different areas? Will we take them into account in the consultation? Iceland, for example, has been an example of a new constitution, new models are also being proposed in Slovenia and Finland. If we really want to question this people, if we want to work on that model of democracy, we have to go beyond consultation “yes” or “no”. I mean, the debates will be partisan and some will try to change the meaning of the right to decide on behalf of the parties’ interests. Politics must be democratised, and the way in which the self-government paper works will be central to this. The debate must be opened up to society, which would facilitate the path and exercise of democracy.

The PNV proposes a new Status. You do not seem to want to cultivate what you say.

I have no confidence in Urkullu, the PNV is not going to go back on its way. I question whether I can act in defence of the right to decide. It advocates a comprehensive structure and an unmoving attitude. If someone lacks the ability to deepen democracy, it is difficult for them to really stand up for the right to decide.

What does it take to change the status quo, without the PNV?

To change the correlation of forces, progressive approaches will have to assume power from the left.

You are just Podemos + Irabazi + Bildu. How do you get the majority?

If society wants it, we will be a majority and if it does not want it we will not be. Politics is the reflection of society.

Undertake from institutions and society, but in what and how to start?

There's a way to understand politics. This is the first task of opening up a new form of policy. We must look at the international community and open the way to broad sectors in order to give the importance we owe to democracy.

Tax Pact: Are citizens aware of the work of the opposition parties or of their proposals?

On that we are, there are possibilities to change the situation, we are exploring. Do we want to do that? It's a decision of society. It's not just about parties. The PNV clearly defends neoliberal positions on taxation. You have to undo a lot of messages, get to know and explain well what's behind our payrolls. We know that there are decisions that are increasing social inequality, so it's increasingly up to us to learn and act in economics.

“Wealth is created by entrepreneurs,” one of those messages says. Lie. Wealth is generated by workers and employers are left with added value. Another motto: “Less and less taxes and more wealth.” Lie. It's quite the opposite. But that's the global trend, imposed by the troika. Studies from around the world show that states have been accumulating more and more wealth over the past 20 years, but that governments are increasingly managing less. If the States of today become ever stronger, their protection will be increased.

This struggle is global, not just a struggle of the local opposition. The leftist parties have to clean up and strengthen our messages in order to move forward with the social partners. Society has to decide what kind of social model it wants to build. The unions had a stronger and more hegemonic force before, and they have less and less weight in general. In other words, if the situation does not change in the short term, the future of our children is very black.