Have you always felt it within the passion of teaching?

From a young age, I played a teacher. I started in Arbizu school, and from there I went to Etxarriko. Then with the friars in Arantzazu, two years and three years in Gernika, in Forua. After that I studied Magisterium in Pamplona and in 1986 I started working at Estella and started Basque Philology in Vitoria. I've always loved teaching. The father had a workshop in Etxarri. My brother was clear that he liked mechanics and I, on the contrary, teaching. I started teaching private classes very young. I have always been very comfortable with children and young people.

You don't have children?

So far I have not had that temptation.

From Arbizu you went to Estella. What was the change like?

Terrible. The site was completely different and I didn't know anybody. Fortunately, we arrived at the same time as four young teachers and went to live together. We were together for three years, until I went to live alone. I've made my hole in Estella and it's been very good years. I immediately felt at home. I had the opportunity to participate in cultural movements, for example, for years I was part of the editorial committee of Elgacena magazine. It's also a city full of art. The Old Party is spectacular, and Estella's light has always seemed wonderful to me.

The Mediterranean of the Basque Country?

Something like that. Every Monday on the way from Arbizu to Lizarra, through the Lizarraga tunnel and passing from fog to the sunny atmosphere, I have always had that feeling of joy.

And what atmosphere did you find in the ikastola?

The commitment of the parents was very great. They wanted the children to learn Basque and to speak in Basque outside the ikastola, although the context was almost completely Spanish.

Has the attitude of parents changed today?

I think so. Ikastola has expanded and now there are many people who choose ikastola not only for the Basque Country, but for the interest aroused by its educational project. A few years ago, it was not usual to listen to a student like Dad, Mom or School, and now it is.

Perhaps the conscience is not so great today, but people who were far from the Basque Country have approached the Basque country attracted by the pedagogical project of the ikastolas. The Basque is not foreign to them and they feel comfortable. Ikastola has therefore been an important element for standardisation. The approach to the Basque of families that could never be imagined has been very positive.

For example, the Beautiful Rejoner of Mendoza?

For example. Or the son of the Director General of Culture of the former government. The Ikastola has succeeded in attracting several of those families that are already known in Estella.

Lizarra Ikastola is 45 years old, but the first ikastola was in prewar.

1931 to 1936. One of the three that were created in Navarre at that time, together with the one in Pamplona and the one in Baztan. There has always been interest in the Basque culture in Estella. The first flag was that of Leitza, Petra Azpirotz. With very few resources he achieved a great pedagogical change. He managed, for example, to go out in the street with the students, to sing… There are still some students who have been there and that is what they remember.

What were the contributions of the ikastolas?

Ikastolas are the creators of teaching in Basque and since their creation innovations have been fundamental. For example, from the beginning the students did not differentiate by sex. The student has always been at the center of the educational process and experimentation has always been of great importance.

The teacher does not know everything and the students do not know anything. The student knows many things and the teacher is the one who puts the means to increase and satisfy the interest of the student. It helps the student by making him see that everything he learns is related to what is outside. These are very innovative ideas. Another characteristic of ikastolas has been that fathers and mothers have been active participants. All the students saw their parents painting the walls of the ikastola or cleaning the patio, so the students did not see the ikastola as a strange or bad place. The interaction of families is very important. Ikastolas have also pioneered the teaching of languages. Lizarra Ikastola was the second ikastola in Navarre to offer early English. Languages are not instruments of struggle. The ikastolas have been very clear from the very beginning that we are here, but open to the world. That is why today we learn English and French at ikastolas, and German is increasingly learned as an extra-school activity. Today, when we talk about language teaching, it seems that some are inventing gunpowder, but that is what we have been doing for a long time in the ikastolas. The immersion model was also the invention of the ikastolas. They didn't know exactly what that was going to bring, because there was no previous experience, but they gambled on it in a very intuitive way, and today you see that this is the best way to learn a language other than that of the mother.

And today?

Some of the projects that ikastolas have today are avant-garde in Europe. In education, a very interesting engineering has been created in recent years: the student has the opportunity to apply everything he is learning in other contexts. The resources you have learned are ready to use them at any time for your needs. It is a very progressive concept. In languages, for example, we have made a special project to make languages useful.

For such innovative projects, for example, Lizarra Ikastola was selected last year as a representative of Navarre at the meeting of the State school councils held in Oviedo.

Do they have more autonomy than public centres to carry out such projects?

We say that we are outside that public-private model, because we are cooperatives. Ikastolas are institutions for the self-organization of Basque education. Self-management allows us freedom. We ourselves are responsible for our resume. An external government should not tell us what we have to do. In these years we have demonstrated that we are able to manage our resources effectively, and the public resources agreed, with the ability to function according to our criteria and identity. Self-management and self-organization are our basic concepts and in this sense we are more public than the public, because parents are cooperative and directly involved in management and decision-making. The working groups are very stable, enabling complex projects to be carried out.

Of course we have nothing against public education, but our autonomy allows us to do things differently, and that has brought us many important awards and recognitions. One example is the President's Award, given a few years ago by English Speaking Union, for the best teaching material, or the work we have been doing three years ago in the European project Positive schools for the promotion of positive psychology. In external tests our students always get very good results. They come out very well prepared. We want autonomous students who know how to think. The triangle of students, teachers and family is very important and is permanently activated.

In recent weeks, the Minister of Education, Mendoza, has been asked several times about the possibility of ikastolas entering the public network.

This project has not come out of us. The publication experience we had at the CAV was very painful and very conflictive, even among the families. That's where we've learned a lot. Families find it cheaper when they are on the public network, but they lose all the autonomy that the nature of the cooperative gave them. We know that some ikastolas in southern Navarre are in a very difficult economic situation, but that is why there is solidarity, which the ikastolas have always demonstrated. This is another strength of our network. In the economic field and in others, we are members of the same network fifteen ikastolas.

But now the public model D is going to extend to all of Navarre. Some ikastolas may not be necessary in the future.

What is happening in Navarre is worrying. At the moment in Tudela, Lumbier, Viana, Lodosa… the only possibility to immerse yourself in the Basque Country is given by the ikastolas. Although in Tudela the line of model D is opened in the public school, the possibility of these students joining the Basque Country in an almost entirely Castilian center will be much smaller than in the ikastola. We fully agree with the new law and with the possibility of studying in Basque, but the problem is that the figures that exist today in some places do not give enough to maintain the two types of centers. The sociological studies requested from the Federation of Ikastolas of Navarra indicate, for example, that in Tudela and Lodosa no more than 10% of the families are willing to choose model D and model A. One of our fears is that the concerts of the ikastolas are lost where the public model D opens. In that case, submission would be seriously compromised, because we do not know what government we will have in the future and what conditions, ratios, it will put.

The generosity of the Government of Navarre is needed, at least until the situation stabilizes. The concert and the flexible ratios we have today are essential to ensure the immersion model.

How does LOMCE affect you?

One of the biggest threats facing LOMCE is the revalid ones. The student must pass the exam at the end of the ESO to obtain the title. It is the formula that the center has invented to catch it, it imposes a form of work on us. Moreover, if the results of the centres were made public, classifications would be generated and competition would be increased. We are trying to promote cooperation rather than competitiveness.

He has been a director for 16 years at Estella. Have you been the main driver of many projects?

I've tried to align ikastola in the 21st century. It has been a very important objective for us to consider the person as the axis and the student as an active subject. We have had to make a lot of changes to this. We have had to learn how to promote self-knowledge, self-esteem and self-regulation and to manage conflicts peacefully. We have launched projects that have radically changed the life of the center: the creative project, oral expression or thought, which seeks the development of the person in five areas. We look a lot at emotions and believe that the rules should be given in a positive way. It is not the same to say “playing is forbidden” or “it is necessary that we all understand each other well”.

We've learned that positive messages can change the world more easily than negative messages. Traditionally, in schools, we've been very careful when it comes to giving the messages of happiness, and that gives a lot of strength to the person. When you enter this dynamic, all the students want to be happy, so you create a different environment. I behave well, not out of fear of punishment, but because I am convinced that a good attitude will have positive consequences for me and others.

And is he followed up at home?

We are in constant contact with families. They are told what we are working on and they are the ones who carry out the observation and evaluation of the processes that take place at home. In many houses the rules have been made in this positive way, thinking about what everyone needs to feel good. We need the involvement of the school, the family and other agents, because education is a matter for the tribe.

Closer to Finland than to other models?

Yes, of course. They have very interesting programs there to prevent bullying, for example. It is better to look at the positive aspects that are taking place throughout it.

However, often you see less beautiful situations and harsher conflicts in some houses.

There are many barbarities. How is it possible to leave home leadership to a six-year-old?

Why does it happen? For lack of time?

And because of the poor quality of time. Sometimes, it seems that children bother their parents. On the other hand, it is common for some parents to feel a certain regret for not devoting enough time to their children. Therefore, when they are together they do not want to lay down rules or limits. They give them everything they want. Many problems are due to the imposition of authority.