Always or most of the time. What do you have, you climbing the ladder, box?

This table contained two parts. It was the pediment, to start with. Here's the green, the yellow, and the gray, the bottom. There was a defense and a striker. And the wall in front of it was black. Two pelotaris, in the space dedicated to the pediment. And I've destroyed it, at will and in spite of me. Three or four years ago, I made that pediment. The job was done. But there was something inside of me, a sinuous knot. It's happened to me because the painting was spatial. Space, oteiza, kutxa… After all, that’s the pediment, a box. And I had two pelotaris made of natural size. It's a great gadget. But there was something that didn't satisfy me. Something conceptual. I'm not a space painter. Instead, I'm a painter who fills the spaces. There was a contradiction in this picture. I liked it, however, but I am not an artist who paints smooth walls, I love the bowels, I like the interior. The concept was the question. And I said, “You’ve had the testicles to paint, and there will be the testicles to undo.” If this occurs, it is necessary to dissolve it. And that's what I'm creating, and I'm hallucinated to see these two parts.

There is no pelotaris…

There is no pelotaris, but I still see them! There's a mess, and that makes me think of the pelotaris. The footprint of those beings that have already disappeared persists in my mind. Anyway, now the ally appears, and therefore forget about the fronton. By the way, a great ally. Where was the pelotari, a jumble, a kind of waterfall, coming out of the plane, down. I've broken the fronton wall! My struggle now is to decide what to do in that space. Along with that ally do another, don't do -- but that ally is so great that it doesn't need a competitor. It's an example of beauty! Live nature!

That's the name of the exhibition you still have in Vitoria-Gasteiz:Living nature. Yet, you don't paint nature, you believe it.

Regeneration. Nature participates in my work, no doubt. Nature is the origin of my painting. That has always been the case. What was it that I was growing up? Go to the field, to the mountain, and paint directly the tree or whatever. In my life, I have never given up on that. Nature teaches me endlessly. And as you grow up, nature seems different to you. And when it provokes emotions, it's the end! Let's make a storm. For example, painting the storm noise is big.

Paint noise? Will it be possible?

Yes, yes. There was a painting in this exhibition in Vitoria-Gasteiz: The noise of the water. It seems to me a good title, because the viewer will not only see the picture, but will also hear the noise of the water, even if it is in his imagination. The water noise in the painting! The viewer has to add the noise. The spectator is a participant, he has to necessarily participate. I'd like the viewer to mentally walk through the paths of painting, the rocks, the fields. First of all, I dedicate myself to those roads as I play. And I see perspective, the place where the sky and the earth merge. Arista. You have to find what I see, recreate it in your own way. Of course, the viewer is part of my work. I would like the spectator to be dedicated to painting. My painting would come to understand it.

Everyone in their own way!

Of course, the picture is not fixed, immovable. It's not a closed idea, it's a totally open idea. Several people, when they saw a painting, exclaimed: “I’m afraid.” Well, it's an emotion, it's a very beautiful thing. Let a painting provoke horror! Many have told me: “This picture is scary to me.” But the picture isn't a real lion, it's not going to touch you, but despite that, that emotion, fear. Excellent! Like when they tell you: “I don’t understand painting.” “OK. Choose one of these paintings.” And choose. He understood that! And he has chosen, sworn and sworn, the most beautiful! Ha, ha, ha. He understood, he chose, he said “this yes, this no.” Valid. You don't need to go to college to understand it. It's about taking into account what paint offers you, what art gives you.

Art...

Art, painting… I've been asked: “Where are you going?”, “to paint”, “to paint?”, “I don’t know” or “I don’t know.” I mean, I'm going to do what I do, paint, find something. I swear and swear, I'm 70 years old, and this morning, when I was in bed, I was also thinking about the paintings that were on the pediment. I get up and go! With the same desire as always. Like when I was 25, I painted the pop at the time. I am not old! I have the same vitality in painting. I could have breakfast calmly and say: “I’m going to see the paintings.” But no, “I have to grab these two paintings,” I say. With the same force and vigour of yesteryear. I'm the same age as 20, the same impetus. It's wonderful that you keep that desire to paint! You want to discover something. I was in bed this morning, two hours ago, and I was painting by heart! I got to the studio, and what I was painting on my head doesn't work. Painting promises me another way.

Painting orders you the way.

Yes. I had the idea of green, making the sky, not doing… But I think it's too easy, and I don't want to repeat it. I've already made the sky. “No, I won’t paint the sky, I have to do something else, I have to dig deeper into the painting, I need something that surprises me and the sky won’t surprise me.” I do that, and after 70 years, I can still be astonished. That's my goal: surprise. “God, what is this!” I don't care what I know, I want to look for what I don't know. In search of the surprise. And then there's luck. And I play with him. I really like luck… The other day I told a visitor: “That painting has been painted alone.” Chance appears, but I shake my hand. Handling. I pull the bowels out to that destination, I add them in one, I remove them in the other… I do it on purpose, at will.

Seeking is research.

Yes, of course. We are always looking for new shapes and elements, although I am very traditional in materials: oil and linen canvas. However, some artists try to treat different materials, such as synthetic lacquers, varnishes, pistols and so on; materials that are constantly on the market. I like the brush and the canvas of always. I like to pamper the canvas with my hand. I try to paint all the elements, I leave nothing loose. I have painted many works several times. Five, six, ten years ago, looking back at the work done and “Ño, this awaits another end!”

Despite the fact that you ended the table on that occasion.

Yes, but if I see again and something that doesn’t satisfy you… On the other hand, I don’t trust myself, and I know that if I come back to the old painting, there may be a result that has nothing to do with the previous one. In other words, it could damage the picture. But I don't care, the deterioration of the painting is within the adventure of painting. It's not planned, but that's also part of the game. I stand in front of the painting I've already made and I started: “I don’t like that color, it’s very fat.” And I start to lighten the color, and in the end, the result is another picture. And why not?

Why not store what has already been done and after the version?

Hence, some artists resort to versions of the same work, a series of three or four versions, which may not be similar in the skin, but which have the same crumb. I do not have the habit of doing such a thing.

Can you still be surprised by your works?

Yes, yes. There's something very old: I'm going to paint. I have no previous approach, but I will paint. How, what… I don’t know, but paint. Like a hunter, it works and it leaves, and suddenly: “Wow! On time!” Well, yes, on time! I usually walk the same way, from one side to the other… Make the way, paint. Bacon, for example, has a key element in his painting: a tormented character. He is the protagonist. I, on the other hand, do not want a single protagonist in the painting, I want him, that and him as protagonists! That's why I'm a Baroque painter, because I play a lot of elements.

You put many elements at stake, all you want to be protagonists at the same level…

I want density. On every page, and as you want in every word, I want to have a leading role in all the elements of the painting. Integrity. All elements need their intentionality, interest, burden. No doubt: from the bottom up, from right to left, from white to black. Come, come, I'll show you the jobs I've already done...