There are an immense number of names in the book: Miguel Sanz, Yolanda Barcina, Enrique Goñi, Ricardo Martí-Fluxa, Aldo Olcese, Javier Taberna… Could you say that it is the Navarra oligarchy that carries out this alleged expoliation?

Patxi Zamora. It is a heterogeneous group and I do not think it is the Navarre oligarchy. The main responsibility lies with the people who have exercised the executive power over the past 25 years, with Miguel Sanz in the lead. It has also been assisted by another group of maximum representatives of the factual powers in the State, as well as by the presence of a State-wide business group. They have also been assisted by UGT and CCOO.

Alberto Gil. The regime is responsible for the expolio, with its political, economic and media pillar. The book mentions, for example, that a loan of EUR 16 million was granted to the Diario de Navarra, which is nowhere. It should not be forgotten that in Navarre the fund moved more than half of the money that was in circulation. All these names have come out with their pockets well filled.

If we were to make up the podium of the main perpetrators, would Sanz, Barcina and Goñi be there at the tip?

C.P. I don't know, it's hard to say. Sanz and José Antonio Asiain as well. Yolanda Barcina has not led the operations, but her responsibility is key because she is chairman of the Control Committee and in all the minutes we read it does not say a single word about the serious things that were happening there. Until 2006, things went very well, but from there, how do you understand that nothing is said? In 2009, Barcina, Asiain and others passed the report that former Director of the Can, Lorenzo Riezu, warned of the disaster that was coming, and that has now been requested judicially and in Parliament, and they said nothing. There are a lot of people in the ranking of responsibilities. Where, for example, was the Navarra Public Prosecutor’s Office in these investigations? Missing.

They have also referred to UGT and CCOO. What is your responsibility?

A.G. Politically, UPN, PSN, PPN and CDN have been the fundamental pillars of the regime and at trade union level UGT and CCOO have joined forces.

C.P. UGT and CCOO have had their people on the Management Board of the Can charging their allowances, and have never said a single word. A curious question about CDN: Kontuz has brought to court four of the five Navarros lehendakaris who have ruled over all these years in Navarre. Juan Cruz Alli has been freed on his own and his responsibility in the case of the can is clear, he has carried EUR 300,000 in diets and it cannot be said that he has no financial capacity on him.
A. Dr. G. Moreover, it was he who led the legal group that promoted the creation of the Permanent Commission of Founding Entities, the black diets that were being charged by Sanz, Barcina, Maya and Miranda.

Aritz Intxusta. One of our sources told us about Juan Cruz Alli. He accompanied him in the car and Alli told him as he passed through the CAN headquarters, “Do you mind a little waiting?” He went up and down at 10 minutes. “What have you been doing?” asked the one who stayed in the car. “Nothing, I had a Management Board and I’ve gone up to sign.”

In addition to the value that the CAN could have for society, can you calculate how much money was lost from 2002 to 2012? You question whether it is worth EUR 1.3 billion.

A.I. Those in charge said it was worth about 1.3 billion, but then to find out what it was worth, the inspection carried out by Caixabank determined that every Civic Bank was worth between -97 and -350 million, after receiving EUR 1 billion from the FROB. According to our group of experts, however, it is very doubtful whether the CAN will have a total value of EUR 1.3 billion at the end of the project. The merger of Banca Civica seemed to interest them in representing CAN bigger than it was.

C.P. It is incalculable, because the most important thing is that Navarre has lost a financial entity such as the CAN and its service to society is enormous, even more so in times of crisis like this. But, as we pointed out in the book, it is not only that these people have brought the loss of the CAN, they have turned Navarre into a desert for several generations. Does anyone have to account for everything?

A.G. In general, I do not know, but there are concrete examples of money losses: some EUR 400 million in pre-retirement, many millions in the excessive expansion of offices… The opening of the Washington office is an immense example: Goñi said that the cost of the operation amounted to EUR 1.5 million and that the Civic Banking Board cost USD 20 million for an office that was never authorized by the US financial authority.

In the book you say that, in addition to economic issues, all of this has a political basis: Fight everything that may smell of Euskal Herria.

A.G. The construction of the Andean Community has to do with this, since Navarre is the economic instrument, with all the possible sovereign adventures that wanted to be ruined. However, the disappearance of the Andean Community is a result of the financial crisis, the expolio and the political factor to which reference has been made.

C.P. But there is one key factor: extreme hatred of anything that may have a Basque smell. Looking at the map, the logical thing would have been to merge with some CAV savings bank, but no, you would have to do it with one of the Canary Islands. It doesn't make sense. In this disaster there are economic keys, but they are mainly political and political decision-makers.

What valuation do you make of the work done by Mari Paz Benito? Could it have gone further?

C.P. According to our legal team, for months he did a good research job. In our opinion, he precipitated the co-decision complaint against Yolanda Barcina, who put the case on the way to Madrid. If I had endured a little more, I think they would have taken more care. It may be that when a company goes well, it does not comment, even if it is done badly; but when so many things happened, that nobody controls that, neither the Bank of Spain, nor the Government of Navarra, is incomprehensible. That is why we wanted to accuse Barcina of prevarication for not revealing crimes, and when we remained in the hands of the Supreme in Madrid it did not give us time for it.

Why do you think Judge Benito took her to Madrid because of pressure or because here she had no more routes?

P. S. This is a personal opinion and we have no evidence, but in our opinion the judge suffered tremendous pressures. For example, the judge requested the minutes of the famous perpetual diets and sent the case to Madrid, where they had not yet arrived.

And he came to the Supreme Court. What they thought was that that was the end of the judicial career or that the Supreme would follow.

C.P. According to our legal team, the investigation conducted by Judge Benito made it very difficult for the Supreme to file the case. We do not say that Barcina was going to be charged immediately, but we did at least investigate further. But no, the decision was political: in a week Jauma Matas, Pepiño Blanco and Barcina were archived.

Although the High Court rejects that of Barcina, the National Court continues to investigate the creation of Civic Banking and the assets of Sanz and Goñi.

P. S. Not only that, our entire complaint is open and Eloy Velasco continues to investigate.

They mention a meal among judges, policemen, politicians and prosecutors in a society in the Plaza del Castillo. If in Navarre everything is well tied, will it not be easier to investigate in Madrid?

A. Dr. G. Navarre is a state problem, we are starting from that base and if it is then here, more in Madrid. The withdrawal of an investigation from the place where the crime occurred is the withdrawal of pressure from the alleged perpetrators of these crimes. This can be seen in the course of the process, while the research took the results here. The citizen’s pressure also marked the political situation here, and taking the case to Madrid is to take the leading role of these citizens, and it must not be forgotten that, after all, they are the ones who have suffered the disappearance of the CAN. It would therefore be logical for them here to judge those responsible for what has happened here.

A.I. The cook of the food you mentioned is currently the president of the Superior Court of Justice of Navarra, Joaquín Galve.

Everything that counts will be believed or not, the investigation will go ahead or not, but one thing is clear, no one has yet filed a complaint against you.

C.P. The book has been the subject of threats, but not of quarrels. Two complaints have been filed against Kontuz: the first [Jesus] Upon removing Pegenaute's, it was immediately filed; the second, Barcina's and Navarra Building's, when we transferred her to the prosecutor's office, was also archived, resorted to and archived again.

A.I. Our complaints have been investigated in Pamplona, they have been investigating in the National Court for several years, it has been said that we have poisoned the public prosecutor there… [they laugh] Well, what we have denounced makes sense if they are crimes for which we spend so much time.

In the book there are many anecdotes, for me this caught my attention: Miguel Sanz testified to Judge Benito and broke into tears at the fourth hour. They will not forgive you easily.

C.P. That is one of our fears. Many of the issues we have denounced have been a paradigm shift in Navarre. Five years ago Sanz, Goñi and Barcina were very powerful and today they have become political corpses. What will they not forgive us? No, but neither would we forgive ourselves for not telling us.

A.G. What will they not forgive us? I hope that we will not forgive them until we know the responsibility for all the decisions they took.

During the study you received threats, follow-up…

A.G. At first they knew that Patxi was there, it was our public man and at one point in the investigation we were told that in the Department of Interior of Navarra there was an order to follow our computer connections. The person who informed us works uniformly in the usual and we gave him a lot of credibility. We always say that if we [Santiago] had done what we would have done to Cervera, we would have fallen into the hook, because we are investigative journalists. We've been sent secret threats, and what our mobiles are about is the noise festival.

However, the information they have collected is enormous. That means that you have received the help of a lot of people, and of a very high standard.

P. S. That's the key. We've completely faded them and never imagined that four fools like us would have so much information. We've destroyed them, and that was one of the goals, so you know that we're willing, like the wolf hunter. Don't they tell? Well, we are going to find what the citizens have to know. They know that we have had and have sources very close to the regime. There are a lot of people tired of what has happened, and a lot of honest people too, who have seen that what has happened is absolutely unacceptable. A part of the regime has read the book and does not look favourably on what has happened, and that is precisely why it has set aside those involved so that they do not do so.

Are you still doing research?

C.P. Yes, and also the book has had good things. Before we had to hunt like dogs, smell everything, now we've started getting calls. And there's information.

A.G. Yes, the book comes after Asiain continued to charge the diets – EUR 60,000 – after Barcina said the diets were over. The real value of the Washington office. Disappearance of high-value CAN paintings. Watch out for the fall of Simon Santamaría…

C.P. We said that in the eyes of a part of the Navarre right Santamaría was the man of the CNI in Navarra. This did him a lot of damage.

The hardest time of the research?

A.I. The hardest thing has been that all the time we've devoted to the book we've taken away from others. We weren't anywhere. Or yes, always in the book.

A.G. We have experienced very hard times on a personal level, but the achievements have also been enormous. Within two and a half years a former lehendakari, Goñi charged, Barcina fugada, a resigned counsellor and Santamaría left. When we started, we would never think that we would go so far.