You always apologize for linguistic diversity. A hundred years ago, the Catalan countries were monolingual. Was the situation bad?

The situation was monolingual and it was all very well. But a hundred years ago, there was no internet, there was no television, the radio took its first steps. There was no communication with the world today. In linguistic substitution processes, when the dominant language arrives, we can see how homogeneous, closed fields are the most sensitive. On the contrary, when the dominant language has linguistic diversity, attacks are better maintained. It should make us reflect. Canonical sociolinguistics always draw you that ideal homogeneous world, and I'm not so interested in that kind of sociolinguistics, because it makes you more vulnerable. At that time, monolingualism was fine. We now have other situations and we do not know how to manage them correctly, that is, we have the monolingual ideal as an objective, we have a great risk of disappearing.

Classical theory says that when there are two languages in contact there are two solutions: the substitution or the advancement of the language.

It's not that that theory isn't valid, it's one more theory. Reality tells us that substitution always occurs. I don't know of any standardization cases, none of them all around the world, in all of history. I've been looking for it for years. I haven't met a bilingual community that has remained stable, and everyone I've met has finished the represented language.

Are the Catalan countries no longer bilingual?

Luckily. Bilingualism led us to disappear. What's interesting is that there's more plurality, if we can articulate it. But now, in general, diversity is acquired by Castilian. This bilingualism is even more dangerous. If we are able to recognise that languages, including Catalan, have to be relocated, we can have hope.

Are bilingualism and disglossia old-fashioned concepts?

I have always said: I do not believe that politics will change languages. Jordi Solé and Camardons, who are friends at all, believe that independence will solve the situation of Catalan and I say no. If we believe in that we have it very badly, because the policy has been very effective in killing languages and not in reviving them. The example of Israel always comes to light, it is unrepeatable. If we want to move forward, if we really want the language to live, we need to look for new models.

He proposes to delve more deeply into the connections between the speakers.

Do you realize that many languages have been lost because of the change in communication channels between the speaking communities? And when you want to regain your language, you have not tried to rebuild that network, but you have tried to regain a certain language, an isolated language. I repeat that none is recovered. It's about sewing the network back or making it new. I do not make much sense to say “let us make Catalan go well”, if we forget what happens in all the territories where Catalan is spoken. The person who speaks perfectly in Catalan will speak in Spanish because people have been put into the skull: to whom we think it is from the outside we do it in Spanish, in an unmarked language. You have to ventilate this network and change relationships.

Can the university push for change in mindset?

Yes, but I don't know if it's very clear. We all look at English. Trilingualism seems to us to be the colophon of multilingualism: English, Spanish and Catalan. That doesn't change anything.

If politicians don't make the change, who has to push it forward?

The audience. How do we get to people? Through politicians? Look, the next event explains everything. In Franco there was more Catalan than now, right? Politics is against, and language advances -- and in theory, when politics has favored you, language has regressed. The paradox should make us reflect. We will surely need politicians to invigorate society, but I believe that the things that come from above, in linguistic matters, generate contempt. There are more examples. This reaction has been described in Guarani, also in Maori. When I put these examples, people think they're from the third world and they don't affect us. But speakers are equal everywhere.

Can it be an independent country in which the tongue dies?

Yes, but let us not let this happen. So I don't want to unify the process of independence with that of language, because they have different rhythms. The process of independence can be day by day. Suddenly, things have changed a lot. It doesn't happen with language.

ERC President Oriol Junqueras says the Spanish will be official. What do you think?

I can understand that possibility in the run-up to the elections, but I do not understand that either. In the last article I have read, I find it nepotistic La llengua dels meus amics, de la meva gent. My friends and my people speak many languages, so there is not a single language. And what about Catalan? Isn't it the language of your people? Why do we have to give a special place to a place where many languages are spoken? I do not understand that, of course. As a historian, he should have a historical point of view, and if what he imagines happens, Castilian will replace Catalan. I do not understand that, and I also believe that it will not get any more votes. You can win more votes thanks to an approach that will force everyone to commit. Here we need more widely spoken language speakers if we want to take care of linguistic diversity. We need your commitment, and I have no doubt that we have the majority. So let's create opportunities to articulate this. Why do we have to have a special attitude towards a particular group? For them, they're a majority, and it's actually not that much. On the other hand, when you talk about Castilian, you talk about unique Castilian, and there are many.

Once Compulsory Secondary Education is over, do everyone have to master Catalan and Spanish?

And more languages, and not necessarily English. I don't know if I'm going to throw too high, but I don't necessarily need to be Spanish. You can learn other languages. The native is Catalan. You can follow other paths. You can promote continuous Romanesque. Now, all of these possibilities disappear in English. The languages of the pupils' families can be promoted. Not everything is possible, but much is needed by society.

Would you explain it to me better?

In Catalonia there are about 40 languages, which only by the number of speakers would it be worth being protected. Today, we waste all the money paying for language classes because we want to learn something I don't know. But among us we have Chinese, Russian, Arabic… Surely it would serve us for coexistence and we would receive the knowledge of several communities of speakers. It would be a way to articulate diversity. The model is as follows: Catalan is the linguistic axis and then take advantage of the opportunities that arise thanks to the languages spoken here.

In short, would he give three advice to the future president of the new Catalan State?

I feel like saying nonsense, saying one thing or another, you'll never tell me. Firstly, I would delete the Directorate-General for Language Policy. The language belongs to everyone and everyone has to commit to it. By keeping it in the fortress, it has been possible for others not to make it their own. The Department of Health or Industry doesn't care about Catalan, it's something that's in the corner. The second is looking for ways to encourage people. It is essential. And above all, to foster coexistence, sharing and illusion. It must be admitted that, if we succeed in doing so, it will be a matter for everyone, not just those who speak Catalan. The third, at least, sets out the means for all things to function in Catalan. Let the cuts not be made by the Catalans. And to offer all the resources to those who have cuts: if we have to give them back, if we have to be patient…, we should offer them everything we need. But let it be clear that the Catalan language of this country is Occitan in part.