In his writings I have understood that the transformation of savings banks into foundations has been an option for politicians. On the other hand, to those who have the power in the boxes we hear and read that they have to do so as a legal imperative ...

See, the new Savings Bank Act has been in operation for two years in Madrid, negotiating by sections with Guindos at the head of the Ministry of Economy and with the Spanish savings bank associations ECSC, represented by President Isidre Fainé – La Caixa – and Vice-President Mario Fernández. They have negotiated until the last comma of the new law.

Notice that the law is called the Boxes Act. Imagine that we were told that the boxes were going to disappear, that they had no future in Europe. Lying, 30% of the Swiss financial system is from the cantons, 40% from Germany... It has been a shame, they have put into law what has interested them in becoming a foundation.

What is Kutxabank right now?

An anonymous company owns the BBK with 57%, the Kutxa with 32% and the Vital with 11% of Álava. Fernandez says that it is a private company, legally it is, but the owners are public. It's the same as saying that SPRI is private, because it's SA. But now it has been established in the law that in order to have 10% of a bank like Kutxabank ex professo, each of the three boxes has to become a foundation. The question is how this change is made.

What options are there?

Those who now command want everything to be in their hands, both the drafting of the statutes and the appointment of the foundations’ patrons, everything. Finally, they have recognised that they have spent months trying to reach an agreement between the PNV and the PSE so that then the pp will also be added. Over and over again they have argued the need to depoliticise the management of the boxes and ultimately what they have achieved: maximum politicisation. Among the parties have agreed who will be the 15 people who will be part of the board and which statutes will have n.En Gipuzkoa is now playing the last fight. But as they have a majority in the BBK and Vital Management Boards and Assemblies, where they will be decided and named... for ever! There will be no more elections, no customer representatives, nothing.

You say that the 15 patrons who are going to govern the Foundation are going to have a patronage over it.

Ministry of Economy and Competitiveness of Spain. Imagine where they lead us from being institutions supported by municipalities and deputies. Mario Fernández and PNV Parliamentarian Aitor Esteban negotiated with pp the new savings bank law.

What are the statutes like? They don't show them, but they're made. The signing of an agreement with the PSOE, which includes the distribution of charges, means that they are drafted. They added the pp because they need it for the vital one. And they want that to be extended over time. That is privatization, the first privatisation. That is what will be decided in the BBK assembly, when the assembly is dissolved. In Gipuzkoa, on the other hand, they have left it for the autumn, and we will be informed in June.

Do you say that you are going to do two privatisations?

The first is to turn them into foundations, which from now on nobody will be able to control them, but those which are today dominated. But then, last February, in an event organized by Alumni Deusto and the PWC audit, Mario Fernández announced that in compliance with the law the banks could not have more than 30% of the capital of Kutxabank, the rest open to foreign capital. That is what the debate has already opened, and that is the second privatisation.

You have just denounced it in an article: “You don’t disguise it. You have done yourself with the excuse of depoliticizing the boxes.” Can you tell me who you're referring to?

Yes, yes. To begin with, nobody on the street owns the boxes and will not intervene in their policies or in their exploitation, whether they vote for the PNV, the pp, the PSOE or the EHBildu. It is true that it does not now command either. Will the political parties govern? In part, yes, at the apparatus level. But who sends in the background?

There is an internal group and close to the EBB of the PNV, and then there are some of the leaders of the different political formations of the PSE and pp. At the PNV Joseba Aurrekoetxea, Jon Jauregi, Xabier Sagredo, Xabier de Irala... They bring the issue with the other main component, Neguri's group.

Who are Neguri's? Mario Fernández, leader of Kutxabank, Ignacio Sánchez Asiain, García Uruñuela, Alicia Vivanco, Juan José Arrieta...

You said that in the PNV there are important people who think differently.

The PNV of Álava presented to the assembly of Vital Juan Mari Ollora, who was later appointed president of the executive committee of Kutxabank, Javier Agirre, María Jesús Agirre... and reading the program they presented, you will realize that they are in favor of the same that many others defend. That is, to maintain the capacity of clients, institutions – deputies and municipalities – and workers when choosing employers; to choose people who are not in the top positions of the parties, who know the subject well; that custody is not in the hands of the Spanish Ministry of Economy.

Do you see forces to take things in another direction?

There is no political will. If there was force, it could be explained in detail what is happening, that what is being done with the boxes is a political option, which is not an affirmation of a scientific and technical truth. Forces? There are solidarity, research and thought economy groups, there are the unions ELA and LAB, CCOO now seems to hesitate...

The Abertzale left has politically misled the issue because, despite being against privatisation, in 2011 it approved that the boxes handed over their entire business to Kutxabank. That's where the mistake was made. It is also true that the others deceived them, some conditions were laid down in the pact, but in the next phase none of the conditions agreed has materialised.

Let's exercise to imagine the future. We are in the spring of 2015. What has happened in the meantime in Kutxabank?

They need money. I believe that they will make an increase in capital. The foundations created by the boxes will not be able to enter, because all their heritage has been given to Kutxabank, they are also selling a deposit for social work... Who is going to enter the capital? Anybody.

Over the past two years, they only behave with speculative investment funds. The parties they had in the companies are also being sold to venture capital funds. They'll do it in order to be able to continue with the kind of business they're carrying.

What business is it about?

They are present in the refinancing of all systemic groups at the national level. The refinancing of FCC’s massive debt of EUR 159 million includes half of the FCC’s debt when it is in stock. In the end, a large part of that credit will turn into action, “take the actions that are not worth anything!” El Corte Inglés, Portland Valderribas, el grupo de comunicación Vocento...

What do you want to get? Create a large bank that has a huge force. Because it controls a large part of the funding, which will condition any movement in our area. A real factual command.

Along the way, discover what has happened: In the creation of Kutxabank it had about EUR 5 billion in the company involved, and now it will be at EUR 3 billion. The idea is to continue selling to venture capital funds in order to be able to raise capital. What do you do with Euskaltel? Selling the CAPV fibre optic network to a speculative background: Is this not a basic infrastructure? What has happened to Ibermatica, Natra, Celtia... Kutxa had 19.5% of CAF, is at BBK Ingeteam... its management tips could be used to create good professionals who work synergies, but what are they used for? For treatment: In addition to giving the PSE two seats on Kutxabank’s board of directors, he entered CAF Buen Lacambra [socialist]. They're playing with the resources our society needs. That's why I say that this Kutxabank operation is a steal, a polio and an economicide.

What was the significance of the economic crisis that broke out in 2008?

Stop. They are now trying to clean up the operating accounts of the entire Spanish state bank. Because banking is without solvencies. In the state as a whole, there are six banking groups at stake, all of which are led by bankers. In my opinion, Banco Sabadell is going to buy Kutxabank.

Why do you say that?

Mario Fernández and Ignacio Sánchez Asiain have very close to Jaume Guardiola of the times he was at the Banco Bilbao Vizcaya.El the dream of those who send in Kutxabank is to have a large bank, as they think the Argentinians took away them when converting him into BBVA, playing in the honor division of the bank.

Contact networks are important in business. So they bought Cajasur for the BBK. About EUR 3 billion has been wasted from the deposits of our people in Cajasur. It is a disgrace. The EUR 1.8 billion of the capital of Cajasur has been put by the Basque companies and there is no right, because we have more funding needs.

You've participated in the event. How to collaborate in favor of the right to decide and face us by Kutxabank?

I didn't face those who were there. We have to do pedagogy with the neighbour, without prejudice. But since the factual authorities have money, they control the media, Vocento... The people affected and other groups of this kind show us the way to work. We have to get to the next one, convince ourselves, “this is happening to us and we cannot accept it.” This is not “Bildu against the other three,” this is not how we have to work. It’s not “get out of you and I get out.” The point is that this country needs good financial resources.