How do you look 25 years ago?

As far as equality is concerned, it is certainly much more illusory than it is now. 1987, II. At the time when the Basque World Congress was to be held, we knew that there would be no women’s issue. Contact the organizers, meet, make visible the lack and its response: “It’s too late, the program will soon be published, it’s impossible.” We don't give up. “We have ideas, we also have people… We’ll do it in the blink of an eye.” And we included a conference on equality issues in the World Congress. Congress was key in my life, along with two or three other facts. The congress made me think deeply. We brought women from the United States, Norway, Italy. One was a historian, the other sociologist, the next psychologist -- Congress opened a new world for me. There I first heard the word "androcentrism." In the Norwegian Parliament, for example, women reached agreements on issues relating to equality. They had a great tradition. They told us that they often voted against the party.

Leave the Assembly of Women of Álava…

Yes. In 1975, I went to live from Bermeo to Bilbao. I was there for two years, getting into politics in one way or another, but unable to attend women's meetings. I knew I wanted to come to Vitoria and work within feminism. But I hadn't reflected, I hadn't read a book, I had only intuition. When I started in the Álava Assembly, we were 80 women. It was terrible. Most of us were independent, not militants of political parties. Although most of them were independent, their leaders were militants, Troskists and members of the communist movement. They were leaders, despite refusing to lead the overall ranking. It was the tyranny of immorality. There is an article about this: The tyranny of the lack of structures. Very interesting. Well, this tyranny has a lot to do with those who have an assembly structure. But I kept walking alone. So I started to have a different view of some of the issues that were raised in the assembly. I read other books, I had other concerns. In the Assembly, we responded to what had to be done, whether it's rape, whether it's March 8, abortion, divorce -- but I did my way. By then I started reading: Marxism and feminism, The housewife under capitalism, The second sex, The mysticism of femininity, Sexual policy, Essays on sexual equality…

What did that mean?

In 1984 I left the Assembly and entered a project to open a documentation centre. In 1986 we created the Sibilla Aleramo Feminist Research and Documentation Center, and that year I started participating in the Zarautz meetings. On the other hand, with the Feminist Forum Maria Maeztu, we have shown that it is possible for women of parties and independent people to work together. In the Forum there are women from almost all parties, but most of us are independent.

Emakunde was established in 1988. The women of that time considered it a great achievement.

Some women! In 1986, a number of women began to meet in Zarautz in order to ask Parliament to set up an institution to develop an equality policy. We did a lot of meetings over the next two years, until the creation of Emakunde. It was adopted unanimously by all parliamentarians. I was there that day. I was moved. I think that Rosa Díez said that this was the second time that the Parliament of Vitoria had taken a unanimous decision since Parliament was set up. Those of us who advocated that public power should develop equality policies and that feminism should collaborate with it were happy. Others accused us of being “institutionalist feminists”, reproaching us for defending work with institutions.

Are they right or wrong?

They were right in a way. But the same has happened with the rest of the movements. That does not call into question this struggle, that is to say, laws must be demanded of the institutions, and laws must be enforced, because they are often not enforced. If the equality law were to be complied with, we would be much better off. The creation of Emakunde was therefore a tremendous step forward. Some continue to claim that the public authorities are patriarchal and that patriarchal power will never promote a policy of equality. I do not share that view. There is nothing more to do with what the peoples of Northern Europe consist of. Power is patriarchal here and around the world. There is only patriarchy, yes, but Norway has developed a higher level of equality than we have.

With the creation of Emakunde, a number of women ' s associations were created.

Like mushrooms. But that, “women’s associations,” not feminist associations.

It’s different…

Very, very different! I say many times: we should not say “for women,” we should always talk about “feminism and equality,” because along with Machistan men there are a lot of Machistan women.

In what atmosphere did you create the Feminist Forum Maria Maeztu?

When we managed to create Emakunde, we said: “We will set up a commission to analyse the policies carried out by the organization. It will be a follow-up committee, to which we will make proposals and others.” As we discussed it, one said: “And why don’t we create a feminist association?” Everyone made their way in that group and the proposal did not seem to us to be bad. We convened a next meeting to analyze statutes, names -- and so we did.

Maria Maeztu, name.

The name was brought by Idoia Estornés. I must confess that in those days I had no news of Mary. I knew about Ramiro Maeztu, and later I found out who Gustavo was. At the meeting there were many of us who did not know Maria Maeztu. She says: “But have you not studied the Encyclopedia Auñamendi?” Idoia explained his biography to us. We all liked the idea of the Forum. In 1987, a feminist forum was created in Madrid in which people wondered if they were going to mix the two things, but that was not the case. The name of Maria Maeztu did not give rise to this. In 1988, the Feminist Forum Maria Maeztu formed the statutes, formed them and assumed legal character. Even though a year earlier I didn't know who Mary was!

What do you say about that start?

It emerged very strong in Bizkaia and Gipuzkoa, and weaker in Álava. We were a lot of women and 25 years younger! Also. To me, at least, the body doesn't help me as then, but the head does, and we're doing it. Things have changed lately: In Bizkaia and Gipuzkoa the Forum is weaker, while in Álava we have strengthened it. A number of young people around 30 have approached the area. They have a lot of strength and are very clothed in new technologies, in social networks… They have proposed to open the profile of Facebook… They are new spaces, they are in favor of that. I'm from another trend, I still live closely tied to paper, but those young people come in a different way and I respect their path. For example, you know better than me the new trends within the feminist movement, queer and others; I am now training in it.

Is gender violence the biggest problem feminism has today?

No. By no means. Moreover, the fact that the public authorities carry out so many initiatives in this area means that there are no other problems. We have serious problems in the world of work and in co-responsibility. On the other hand, the Dependency Act has been the largest wood that has long given us. For example, the employment situation and the wages of women do not belong to men. Don't even think about it. In this sense, I do not think it is a coincidence that many of the hospital services go abroad. They are called “non-own services”: cooking work, cleaning…

It's women.

Women. Where is the most unstable job? Services provided by women. It's no coincidence. Historically, it's proven, we have data. The system continues to believe that the principal wage is that of man and that that of woman is complementary. This is how the system thinks, although no one diga.Hombres and women do not have the same right to work.

Where is the solution?

In many areas of society.

Is the solution for feminists to take power?

Of course, that there are feminists in power would help us. There is a feminist party that was legalized in 1979, but many feminists do not agree with its path and we do not vote. In our Forum, for example, we have the priority of being independent. Where is the solution? We have to do a lot of things: change people's mindset, because it hasn't changed as much as we think it has. The participation of man in private life is scarce: few permits are granted for the care of children and/or adults; if it can be promoted at work, the man will hardly give up, while the woman will give up in most cases, giving priority to the family. As far as public services are concerned, we still have to look north of Europe, such as Finland, for example. Schools and others. On the other hand, there are the media, which have a great influence on the strengthening of sexual roles.

The Feminist Forum Maria Maeztu attaches great importance to education.

Yes, but in ours it is not enough. Teachers have no training in equality, they do not realize that in the classroom they are constantly putting sexist examples, they do not realize what model appears in the school books… Much progress has been made in education, because today girls go to university like boys, but in many other areas, the attitudes of teachers, school books, the presence of women, the media bombing suffered by parents… We are still far away.

We've gone back 25 years to the beginning of the interview, and in 1988 you told us you were more excited than you were now. And today?

I came from the 1987 World Conference and I could eat the world! Today, I would need the Spanish Government to disappear in order to delude myself again. They're managing the crisis wrong, they're lying. Social services are declining steadily. The issue of homosexuality, the new divorce law, abortion, the dependency law was passed, public services were reinforced… Public services were reinforced and existing laws were complied with. In 2009, we signed a document with other feminist associations, Feminism in the face of the crisis, in which we said that employment must be considered in a different way, that taxes must be changed, that co-responsibility must be promoted and public services must be strengthened. We have shared responsibility: despite the political measures, man has not made a chip. Men and women, we are deeply the same people: our minds, our care needs, our feelings -- they're the same. We have to organize society in a different way so that this is the case. A feminist said that equality is the most universal proposition. That all men and women have the same opportunities and the same freedom is nothing else.