In 2007 it was ninth on the list of elections to the Parliament of Navarra. However, there were later incidents in the party (PSN), being elected secretary-general: “I took office with enthusiasm to update the internal structure of the party, to make its organization useful, to favor the despised people, that is, the working class and the middle classes. More reason now, because of the crisis,” he told us.

The PSN, on the other hand, is weak due to the situation. Among other things, because of its troubled and turbulent past.

It is true that at the moment we are not in the best situation, in 2011 we did not get the best results, it was a very bad year, but this is not a weak aspect. It has a solid structure, with many mayors and councillors. It has the strength of a party that has ruled Spain and Navarre. It bases its strength on its principles and values, the principles of the majority of Navarre society. The PSN is a party of Navarre origin, with an absolute majority.

It's not that Transition party, though. He was in favour, among other things, of the right to self-determination.

Ours, of course, is the party that defends the institutional framework. The Socialist Party has been clear about the framework for action since 1982: The Foral Community of Navarra within Spain. The PSOE of the Transition had other nuances about today’s party.

You say that you have recognised that the SNP has made mistakes in private, do you confirm this publicly?

The mistakes have been made by all parties, including the PSOE and the PSN, both in the government and in the opposition. It is true that here at some crucial moments we had to be a stronger party with regard to UPN. But it is true that we have been conditioned by terrorism. Terrorism has marked the political initiative for years and prevented us from acting on other issues. For us, first freedom and democracy have been in the matter, and then the others. In this way, there was more harmony with UPN than with the other parties, especially with those of nationalism.

Meanwhile, the PSN has remained at the mercy of the right, which depends on UPN.

No. Not at all. Let me give you a practical example. The parliamentary spokesman has tabled a law against tax fraud, and we have tabled an alternative law. You will get to know them through initiatives.

On the subject Cervera: What do you think of what happened with Santiago Cervera of the PP?

The only thing I can say is that I want clarification of what has happened and that it is clear to me that there is one victim: José Antonio Asiain. Victim of extortion. There is another person involved who will have to be resolved by the courts.

As for CAN, one of his brothers was charged with committing irregularities.

Do you mean the article that came out in the News Journal? He was referring to a direct relative, but it was the one who wrote that corrected him, because it is false. This family member, as a Can worker, benefited from working conditions, as did the rest of the family. What's more, I wasn't in the CAN organs, just like that.

What is the position of the PSN with regard to the CAN?

If CAN has become a foundation, we say: Navarre has exclusive powers in relation to the Foundation and Parliament must regulate the future of this Foundation, as well as the bodies that run it. We want all the mergers on the road to Caixabank to come to light. Those responsible for the Can have to explain how the process has been going on in recent years, where it is and where it is with transparency and tranquillity.

If it is striking that in the communities of Navarra and Valencia the most relevant cases of irregularities are presented, right?

The cases of corruption and irregularities that have occurred in Navarre cannot be compared with those in Valencia, Madrid, Baleares or Galicia. Not comparable. It is true that there have been criminal acts in the past, which have been condemned. Then there have been little things. In the Basque Country there have also been phenomena, around the PNV. But I don't think they're the most prominent. However, look, with corruption you cannot lower your guard, you have to be on alert, because it is politics that attacks the worst.

On the activity of the Navarre Parliament: The PSN has agreed with UPN on a reform of corporate and income taxes. In other words, it has given UPN a blow.

It's not true. I deeply reject this lie. Income tax was approved on the basis of the proposal that we tabled. The Wealth Tax, as regards the proposal we are making. Corporate tax also went ahead with our proposal. Listen, if UPN accepts our proposals... Other groups were added to the other proposals. Therefore, the Tax Reform that has been adopted is very beneficial, as we wanted. We have not agreed with anyone, we have come together, others have voted for our own. So that's great.

They have ruled with UPN in this legislature, until the summer. What is the teaching of experience?

The stage was endorsed at two months, as it was born with original sin. That is, from the moment when UPN agreed with pp, since it followed pp policies. Teaching: UPN and Barcina are not reliable, as they are with the pp within two minutes of having signed an agreement with us. We have antagonistic policies and more in crisis. The PP-UPN is committed to reducing and austerity depression. Our policy is in favour of the society of growth and welfare.

The PSN claims the change in Navarra. In 2007 he had the opportunity, but finally decided the opposite of the Ferraz of Madrid. José Blanco’s decision comes when Fernando Puras was a candidate for the presidency of the Generalitat. Can this change in the future? Will the alternative to UPN materialise?

My conviction is that if the Navarros want an alternative to UPN, it will be a credible, responsible alternative that ensures that the policy goes better. And that guarantee is a socialist party. The Socialist Party offers security, while the other opposition political forces offer the dissolution of the Foral Community, something that most Navarros do not want to do. If change is to make left-wing policies to ensure economic growth and social sustainability of well-being, to improve the situation of the most disadvantaged people. In these parameters we are prepared to reach agreements with anybody else. Alternatiba is a socialist party. But if someone is thinking that the PSN will articulate an alternative with those who want to end the Navarre community...

UPN will hold its congress in March. Miguel Sanz has shown himself in the political circles saying that the position of the PSN does not help to complete the legislature. Are the elections ahead? Is that what the PSN wants?

We do not care about the problems of UPN. We are not in that, and furthermore, anticipating the elections does not depend on us, but on the will of the President of the Government. Our job is to make proposals in Parliament, and we have done so: alternative laws to tax fraud. In order to guarantee the universality of health, 0.7% will go to specific objectives in the income statements and not to do what the government wants. We have proposed measures to prevent pharmaceutical copayment by Navarros and to promote creative employment. If others are thinking about elections to make politics. When the elections come, then abordaremos.Somos a solid party with history.

Well, in the City Council of Pamplona, for example, they have stayed with three councillors.

One thing is that in 2011 the results are bad... But let’s admit that the PSN is the only one that comes under the same acronym from the Transición.Ver others, who want to articulate the alternative with us, change their name every two years: Nafarroa Bai, Geroa Bai, Amaiur, EH Bildu, Euskal Herritarrok, ANV, Herri Batasuna... Hey, that's not safe. Another thing is that in a context we have bad results. This aspect is solid, deeply rooted in Navarre society, with a strong structure, which others would like…

It seems difficult to reach agreements with parties other than those of UPN.

The position we adopted in the last regional committee is clear: With UPN the bilaterality time is over. That does not mean that we put it aside and that we have priority with other teams. With the other groups, we can come together on the postulates on the left, which is what often happens. We have distributed ourselves in the extra pay or in the hours of officials, in the property tax and on other occasions. And other things with UPN. In any case, we are a socialist party, other than UPN and the nationalists. We are what we are: the Spanish Socialist Labour Party.

Meanwhile, this nationalism is spreading through EH Bildu and Geroa Bai.

That is not entirely true. Basque nationalism has hardly grown in votes in Navarre. Another thing is to win seats, because our voters have stayed at home. It's not the same thing. Historically, the place of nationalism has been and is important. But it hasn't gone up. In this chaos of acronyms, it seems that there are many more parties, many spokespeople, but in the end it is chaos, and the citizens see nothing clear. In essence, Basque nationalism is a way of feeling politics, rather than rational sentimental movement, like all nationalisms. I do so with all respect, and I am far from them.

Beware! GEROA Bai could take part in the vote or in part of the space that the PSN voted against.

Not at all. The data indicate that we do not have an electoral competition with Geroa Bai. Our electoral space is in moderate positions. A nationalist party will hardly be able to take votes against socialism.

The Abertzale left does not, but the votes on baskism...

We are talking about different things. Baskism has a place in our party, and witness this is the character of this community. But this party is not a nationalist one. Indeed, we have to evolve further in that sense, because that sensibility is in the community, and the reason for this aspect is to add and add.

Well, even if you're not a nationalist...

I am not a Basque nationalist...

Someone can say that you are a Spanish nationalist.

Neither.

Where are you in Navarre, where are you PSN?

We disregard identity issues. Our party has, above all, an internationalist vocation both in Navarre and in Spain. Rather than as a people, we talk about people, that is our difference to any nationalism, whatever its origin. We see more people than collectivities, borders, languages and peoples.

Where is the left in Navarre? How do you wrap it up?

Based on principles and values. The left-wing side has the clear priorities: to guarantee the conditions of equal opportunities and a decent life for all people. That is the priority. And that's what resources are directed at, and laws are created. Above all, there are individuals, not collectivities. That's the left.

So does collective rights not exist?

I don't deny it, of course, but first there are people, subjects. The subject of rights is the person. That's the difference.

Does EH Bildu, for example, do left-wing politics?

Yes, on some issues yes. But the question is: What is it for EH Bildu first, leftist policies or self-determination and independence?

Is self-determination not a right? The Foral Community of Navarre can self-determine, right?

Every people determines themselves day by day, in the elections...

Suppose one day, nationalism is the majority...

Yes, 4. Thanks to the Transitional Provision, Navarre will meet in the Basque Country if the people of Navarre so decide. We will be against it, because it has gone well to our Forum as it is. That does not mean that we have to live on our backs to the CAV, because, among other things, we have important cultural links.

4. You therefore accept the accession of the Transitional Provision.

I say that it is the best guarantee of the right to decide what some say, because the people of Navarre can give their opinion and decide. In the end, that is what we have to do, if we have to do it.