A few months ago we presented the encyclopedia of the Romanesque in Euskal Herria, in Bilbao, in the Iberdrola tower, and now we are closing the one in Catalonia. There are also several Romanesques in the Basque Country, although many are not listed! There is, of course, more in Álava and in Navarre than in Gipuzkoa and Bizkaia, but also in these, as they are.

I wasn’t going to think straight away that we would join Antonio Cancelo with the Romanesque art of Euskal Herria…

No, that is not mentioned in the conversations I have had. However, I will tell you that, for ten years, after my portrait, I have made another completely different life.

“Retreated… completely reformed”. It’s not what we hear every day…

For me, it's just a continuation, changing the project. I am not going to deny the project that I had ten years ago. I didn't think of it. This is something that I should like to remind you of, both individually and collectively. But when it's 65, we have to give up. Work, responsibility, position. We have to leave it, but in spite of that, life continues and we have to live. Many don't know what to do the next day. It's also that. I wondered. “From here to back, what?” And I, who have always been planning, did, did.

And what?

And what? Nothing, two have not been complied with! Well, having time off, that's been done. "I have to do the Camino de Santiago! I told myself. I didn't. “I have to learn to cook!”, I have not learned… Because many people came, some I knew, others I didn’t know, to ask for help, support, advice. “You had a plan, but they have come to ask for help. What are you going to do? So, change the plan, link it to the end that has governed my life!” And that's what I did.

What's your purpose?

A question and his answer have always guided my life: “What should I do? The most useful for society”

Where are the roots of this question and answer game?

My roots are in Christianity, from children. When I was young, in the same military service, I did the so-called “Courses of Christianity.” Reflection on themes such as life, transcendence... This thought shook me inside and has since led my life. It has changed the way of expression, before the rite had a lot of strength, now not, also in me, but the feeling is there. And there, I, and the willingness to do what's most useful is for society. For me, it's hard for human beings to accept what life means. We don't know where we're coming from or where we're going, but we know we're here. And as long as we're here, what? When we get to answer that question, we are not bad...

This is what the classic Basque Orixe says: “I was born to die / each time I will die / to die all / I will start to live”...

Birth, death… If we realized that the most important events of our lives occur without our participation, we would solve the most important unknown of the head. And in the time between birth and death, I have to fill my life with actions. However, of the actions that are useful to me, and that are useful to us.

Action commands in the West. In the East, meaning usually prevails, the encounter with oneself and with the world, contemplation…

It's a delicate idea. I have already done so. Well, it seems to me a very selfish attitude. They see the holy ones and they think it's what they have to do. Self-destruction is its principle. I, on the other hand, have action, because we are built through action. That's where I am. We also help others build themselves. In my opinion, the human being is a solitary being, but he is a human being in the relationship and, consequently, he has to fill that relationship with meaning. Today, people lose their homes, not much to eat… If I don’t worry, I wouldn’t be totally human.

You talk about Christianity ...

From Christianity, yes, but more from humanism. Sometimes I can't find any differences. For example, when I'm in the university of one and the other, in the master's programs, here and there, that's the first thing I say: “I will tell you the purpose that has moved my life, for in the rest you will understand nothing”

And think about it in military service! It also has its edge! When the order goes up, the swallow goes down, the party and the juerga and the dip are on the skin, it illuminated you...

I, soldier, had an inn to learn for free. That's it. We had no financial resources. Instead, I wanted to learn. Everything, but it learns. To do so, it was necessary to go to the city and the only way to be in it was to accompany me as a volunteer. Accommodation to learn for free. Being a soldier, I got permission to go to the Faculty, in Valladolid [Spain]. I was in medical school and studied nursing.

Your military service.

Different from my friends. I asked for a stable and they accepted it. There, beside the horses, there was a catre, where I slept. Being there, I was freer, I didn't have to do the schedule well, and I had the opportunity to learn. It's a military service, and people say pits, black donkey and two, but I never ate as well as there.

Born in Puebla Sanabria [Zamora, Spain] in 1936. “Gerla urte, gezur urte,” Fermin Irigarai Larreko said among us. Year of war, year of lie, year of hunger…

Hunger, yes. The war is usually hard, and it was especially hard in our family… My first years in Puebla Sanabria. Then we went to Lubian [Zamora]. Then, when the road was over, my father, who was a practicing physician, moved to Mota del Marqués [Valladolid] and with him we. It wasn't easy... My father was the oldest of nine siblings. Grandpa, doctor, died young. My father had to study something hastily and became a practitioner. His Majesty, who loved him! I always learned it! As for the Marquis Species, as has been said, it had complications, as the rural physician was more idiot than a stupid one. Said with sweetness and softness. At that time, more than one who won titles and documents giving away hams! At least we have made progress on this! Ja, ja, ja…

At least in this.

The village doctor, who didn't know it, was dedicated to doing strange tasks. My father was trying to correct his mistakes. The doctor couldn't tolerate that. He did not accept the instruction of his subordinate. The consequence is that it did not allow us to live in peace. I will not delay that, but I will not hide it either.

Does it hurt?

I have lived it naturally, I have assimilated it. Of course, when you have everything you need, it’s easier for you to get along with those who have hurt you in the past, without pesalins. It's easier to miss the hour. We didn't think it was the right situation, but we knew we had to go in, live in a positive spirit. So we forged the first character, and then the Christianity courses of the militia gave an ideological glimpse into what had been forged until then. It was Christianity, but it was compromised. It wasn't just going to Mass. Also. Or praying the rosary, like in Eibar, with open arms, like on the cross, because we prayed. Also. Or get up at 6.30 in the morning and head to church. Yes, that was it, but above all it was commitment: “These people live in a cottage, fathers, mothers, children. But it wasn’t enough to say “it’s not right,” nor to go out in the street with a banner, because they would, after all, continue in the chabola. “What if we made them home?” That was our religion.

We have a banner, we have a manifestation, we have an association… and today, evictions, evictions, expropriations…

So. A step must be taken. The claim is insufficient. Not even thinking that someone will solve the problem for us. We have a tremendous mistake. The problems will be solved by ourselves and at best they will help us. But we're not sure. The claim is OK, but I want to go further. When there are days of strike, for example, I always think about the next day. And the next day is the second of the day. Identical. We have shown disagreement. If that serves us, well, but we have not changed anything! The key is the organization of society to achieve a better society.

How did the local doctor's behavior affect your father? What was it like for her mother?

He did a lot of damage to his father... It was terrible. She felt guilty, she was terribly violent. She did what she could. We grew up in terrible austerity. So we were in that situation when I finished my studies. I went to the town next door, to Pedrosa del Rey [Valladolid, Spain]. It was my first job, paid. Of course, we had no money. We were then charged every three months and, in the meantime, Pedrosa's cure brought me over 500 pesetas. We rented a little house, we ordered my sister to be searched, and with the greatest austerity, we lasted three months until we received our salary. In the meantime, I understood that I should take my parents out of the Marquis Species, which they would not succeed there. I forced them to leave the country, and that is the word, the oath. By then, my father was already very old, had several points and, therefore, was a unique opportunity to go to a transfer competition and to a larger town. So the father came to Eibar and with him the whole family. So we went to Euskal Herria. It's a miserable!

You said austerity. Austerity has prevailed in your life…

Yes, and he still commands. My wife, Mary Jesus, and I, think that the evil that our society suffers, such as the economic crisis, is due to mismanagement, to the action of leaders and politicians, but not only to that, but also to the conduct of citizens. We have all been involved in this carousel. We've gone crazy, instead of buying them until we have money. Austerity is therefore not a bad measure. Even before now!

We've been in debt, they've helped us indebted. "Shop that way! 2x1! 3x2!..”

We're always in it, it's the fault of everything. The environment undoubtedly influences, but it is not decisive. Many will believe that the environment decides for him, but not. You're above the environment. Even when they are “buying, buying, buying” we have the decision.

“Turn words around, we’ve done it.”

If you want -- in our culture, in fact, the blame always lies with the other. We have to know that the environment presses us a lot, yes, but nevertheless, if we do not want, we do not do it in vain.

You came to Eibar, but not directly, along with the migratory wave of the time…

No, we went here, fleeing from an extreme situation. We were four brothers and we had no future in a small town in Castile. When I forced my parents to come here, my mother placed a condition on me: “Okay, we’ll go, but you’ll come with us” Quid pro quo! Do not believe, however, that in Eibar we took home. At least in its entirety. We had two rooms, with permission to use the kitchen, on one floor of the last number of Txonta Street. Txonta Street, to put it another name in Eibar. In that house we lived three families!... Things are not achieved on the first day. It's done little by little.

Are we now in a position to understand this situation?

I have to explain it first. The example is usually very powerful and serves to get people to understand it. If you have a theory, not even the best, if you do not explain it by yourself, you will hardly be able to make the way. If it's a personal story, the story will be moving. Another thing is to change the attitude of others, but at least to excite them. And getting excited, it's communicating, it's connecting with others. And when you connect, it's easier to do anything.

I thought people wanted only the solution to the crisis.

Yes, people want an immediate response, not a mystery of stories. “How are we going to fix this?” they say. But before we use tactics, we have to know what we believe in. Otherwise, it's useless. If we know what we believe in, we will remember the rest! There is not so much absolution in the world! That we do not agree on two hundred points? Only three times? It is no small matter, we are in a position to start working. Three points will be our leit motiv, from which we will receive the project! People's hunger for mathematical solutions! For example, people have specialized in macroeconomics: public deficit, fiscal deficit, risk premium… and do not realize that without microeconomics there is no macroeconomy. If there is no profitable company, we are doomed to gradually destroy our standard of living. All resources are based on the competitive capacity of companies. Go and tell the truth to people! I no longer have any concerns about saying anything, because I am not linked to anyone, no project, no representation. I'm the freest I've ever had, owner of myself. I replaced Eroski, represented MCC Mondragon Group… I had a commitment to them, I had to be faithful…

Should we wait for them to portray us to say what we think freely?

We all have various elements around us and it is up to us to replace them in one way or another. At the time when I represented the Mondragon Group, I was spokesmen for a message. We used to agree on the message, by consensus. The alternatives could be several, but at the end of the day, there was an agreement of one or two and I had to fight for them enthusiastically, which was my boss. That is the most difficult thing that democracy has, that the opinion one has of the majority is not accepted. But you have to accept it and defend it as your own. For the rest, I do not know what majority opinion is worth. When you represent something, you have to play a role, even without harming your intimacy. If you're against you, it's best to leave it. I quit and left. Consistency is necessary, but what you advocate is not necessarily your opinion. Or, if you prefer, it's your opinion, along with others. In a time when you don't represent anyone, what you think doesn't belong to anyone but you. Of course, it has less strength, the opinion of a single man or a large group is not the same weight.

You don’t have any commitment, today…

No, I don't. For example, I say that it is good to save the bank, even if the measure is not at all popular. But, having said that, I reasoned it next. I am against the amount that bank managers earn. Completely against. I've lived my whole life differently, and how wouldn't I object? But that's one thing. And against that, I would join you all. OK. I am against what bank managers and many other people gain. In any case, how much do the banks earn? If we add up, it seems like it's a lot. Have you ever calculated how much the bank earns in relation to the resources it manages? The Banco Santander, which manages one trillion and four hundred and forty billion euros, suppose, how much would it earn in a fictional year? Seven billion. And how many are seven billion? 0.5% of the money it manages. And instead, he's going to ask people, and he's going to believe that he wins 50 percent. Minimal analysis, rigorous, without prejudice. Today I can say that and other truths. Before I had to be more careful, I was a spokesperson, the company wasn't me.

The company was not you. I thought Antonio Cancelo's values were those of Eroski, MCC. And the other way around, if you want to ...

At one point, that made me think very deeply… I think there was a very high level of identification, not 100%, but very high. I had a great deal of weight in the transmission of values, because I was not just a manager, but also a leader. And the difference is whether you're a manager or a leader. The leader is not chosen by anyone. The people around us take him as a guide, they accept you, without evidence.

Faith, trust there…

Confidence in any project is the key. If there's no trust, what is it? Mistrust. And then, while everyone is watching each other, the north is lost. In order to have confidence, authenticity is needed, the person has to express himself as he is, practice what he preaches. If what you say and what you do don't agree, the discourse is already, it has no value. “You have to try!”, you say, after you try it. When people see the model, then they will. In the case of Eroski there was a lot.

What about the Mondragon Group?

Less. In the case of Eroski, I was there, in the creators, when I was born. As far as the Mondragon Group is concerned, he was already in place when I entered. It is true, however, that I first put a number of issues on the table. For example, I had achieved the best of my life: working and living in the same place. Until then, I had lived in one, worked in the other. In 1989, when I said I wanted to leave the direction of Eroski…

You left it ...

On my own initiative, I will leave it to you. After calming down the first storm, I could explain to myself: “I don’t want to continue in day-to-day management, I want to work on the project. And I came to San Sebastian, working on a project with three friends. It was up to us to set priorities, to extend them throughout the state, and this and that. And when we were running the project, with a very committed intention, with a lot of risk, where the rumours begin to arrive. The leader of the Mondragon Group, Javier Mongelos, was going to enter the toilet, he even called me, he asked me for names… But I was afraid, and after me in Eroski they named Constan [Dacosta] director and I yelled at him: “In Constan, this and that they are doing, I am concerned that I am appointed chief, and I do not want. So, we're going to invent a strategy so they don't choose me."

And then?

Constan told me that when they asked me for the reason, he wouldn't give me any reason. “I don’t want, I don’t win,” just say. “How am I going to tell you that! I haven't told you this all my life! I’m used to giving reasons” “Well, you’re lost! I, however, gave reasons, among others, to Javier Mongelos and José María Aldekoa, chairman of the standing committee at that time, and they heard me: “I come from another story… You have another rhythm… If I fulfilled the function you ask me, I would start to define my own scenario…” They, instead of going back, advanced: “That’s why we love you!” “But I live in Donostia!” “Well, let’s put an office in Donostia!” So I entered the Mondragon Group.

You were the leader of MCC…

However, the organization was already done. I, if I had it, injected another dynamic. In this different dynamic, there are several fundamental elements. The first is to get out of what people think is “darkness.” There is no darkness, but some see it as a closed order. “Tomorrow back, we will be on the street!” I said, that is, saying that we would be in the press, on television and in all the media that are and are not. This did a lot of damage to a lot of people who were near me. He wasn't used to it, he didn't feel at ease. “We have a value: social responsibility. It includes the inside information, which we've always worked on, and the outside information. We have a duty to tell society what our commitment is. Then we will tell you that we are fulfilling those commitments, that we are not, that …

Social responsibility. Can the degree of compliance with this commitment be measured?

No measurements, no possibilities. If the objective were fully achieved, it would be a project that would not have the capacity to move forward. It's best to define goals, and when you approach them, guess others, farther away, more ambitious, that will force you to work. At that time, at our time, communication was the main axis, we had to go outside. With whom to talk and with the leader of Confesbask! Baltasar Errasti. “I want to talk to you,” he said. Until then, they had seen us enemies. Why? They used one formula, we used the other. First, respect and then we will look at what we can collaborate on. For example, we take innovation as a starting point.

Technological innovation?

More than that. Innovation is the mood, which says that everything can be better. The behavior itself, the organizational model… are changing.

Are the founding values of Eroski or MCC in force?

The question arises quite frequently and, on many occasions, has a pseudonegative answer. They start and “Well… Well… Society has changed… We have all changed…” I am much more taxative: “Yes, they are in effect, no doubt,” because they have been institutionalized. Words are too many, we're fluttered by the neck, but when words become actions, there's no question. Solidarity, for example. The President of the Corporation is going to need all his life to win what the President of the country wins in a short period! For example, the profits will not be distributed according to a capitalist, because there is no capitalist in the corporation, but in function of the work done. For example, this benefit does not become a currency, it is used to strengthen the project! These are the values. In force? No doubt. Another thing is how each partner perceives them. That is something else.

Why is that?

Predic intensity. The practice, I said, is there, institutionalised. The message is usually decaffeinated and must be renewed every right tiempo.Mire, when the manager of a cooperative goes to the general assembly, which is the ultimate organ, cannot talk about the market, the ratio, the balance, 95% of the discourse, and the rest, explaining where we go, why we are here, why we do things the way we do... At the very least equal work will be done. It is essential to report the numbers, but also our existence: why we do not have private shareholders, why we do not distribute profits on the basis of the capital that one has, why we distribute the income much more fairly than in any alternation. That's what fills people. That.

People live by looking at numbers…

Also when I was president of MCC, that was what the media wanted to know. How much and where. “First I have to explain why,” I told them. If there is no reason, how much and where they are not important.

Is the cooperative model exportable? MCC in China, Brazil, United States…

No. There are several reasons. First of all, cooperative laws are totally different. Secondly, by creating the cooperative, ownership is not yours, but of the partners. If you want to create a cooperative in China to equip Volkswagen with materials, where Volkswagen is, they'll tell you no, they want you, not the Chinese. They themselves would create the cooperative, the Chinese partners would make the decisions… The difficulties are a thousand. However, despite being a capital society, it is possible to implement the cooperative's operating model.

For example?

Workers may participate in the capital, participate in profits, participate in government bodies and participate in management. This requires only the will of the owner. Moreover, it is incongruous not to do so, because some cooperatives would live at the expense of other non-cooperatives.

People from four corners of the world usually come to Mondragon to learn first-hand about the functioning of the Mondragon Group…

There is curiosity, yes, but it is more an intellectual curiosity than a practical curiosity to reproduce… Look, in the characteristics of the cooperativism of Mondragon there is one that quietly passes, and yet it is absolutely decisive, from the very moment when the first cooperative is created: a common commitment. As we know, the first cooperative was Ulgor in 1956. Well, the second cooperative was not set up outside the first. The bonds were not entirely visible, they were weak, if you like, but they were reinforced as time passed. On the contrary, in the movement outside this experience, both in Spain and abroad, it is sent by the individual cooperative: one is here, another does not. In relationships, for example, they are linked to each other through representation commissions, seeking common interests, but not joint commitments. This by no means weakens the development of the cooperative movement in exile. Still today, we have been in Barcelona, presenting the study carried out on the cooperative movement there. I said bluntly: as long as the cooperatives here and there do not merge, they have a party. Today, the cooperative needs solid structures, which do not exist until now, if it wants to compete from where it is located. Yes, we must take care of the local structure and autonomy, we must not lose sight of it, but the global economy requires different management. The management model needs to be changed.

Where's the key?

Well, now I'm working with farmers' cooperatives. They are second-degree cooperatives, who have a great force in the commercialization of the products, but who, along with that, do not comply with the regulations of the second-degree cooperative, do what one wants, do not commit to putting all the products at once, have “second ways”, and use them when it suits them, without going to the cooperative… That is, tricks. However, they are against distributors, they say that they are being squeezed out. I say: “What have the distributors done? They've come together, concentrated. You have not concentrated, and so are the victims of a model that you do not want to change!” And what is the objective of the agricultural cooperative? Increase disposable income for farmers according to their statutes. There is no more. So what does the farmer do when he comes with a large distributor to buy milk, for example, in cheap wood? Flush the milk down the street… No! It unites forces, it forms a single front, and then yes, the one buying milk will have no choice but to negotiate! For the rest, when you work in small units, you are lost: the organizational model, you have no choice but to change the form of management.

You say “Increase income” on the objective of the agricultural cooperative. Is there no social responsibility in them?

The cooperative world is more complex than we think. There are cooperatives, like ours, of workers. I think they are the real ones. But there are other cooperatives, for example, that have no other purpose than buying some products at once. Both are cooperative, but different. In agricultural or pharmaceutical cooperatives, the worker is employed. Protagonist of the associated work cooperative.

It's amazing ...

No, it is to be consistent with certain principles, to have values, to have the work of equal value. From On Jose Mariaga [Arizmendiarrieta] we have values that come from the beginning: the person constructs himself through work, helps society through work… Work is the protagonist, not consumption. It's the job! At the global level, the concept of the cooperative has not suffered such a revolution.

Do you think that the workers of the cooperative go from one side to the other and the others from the other?

I guess so. It is obvious, but we have to explain it so that it can be understood. I have had to hear many times in the cooperative: “Working in the private company, working in the cooperative, on an equal footing” I do not agree: "Stay there! It is so similar that, after 40 years of work in the cooperative, the worker has a accumulated capital of 270,000 euros. Go and look! One accumulated in 40 years, another accumulated in a day or an hour! There are differences, right?” You have to explain it. People think there's no more world, which is the same, but it's not true, the world works in a lot of ways.

He has brought us to the lecture “Don José María”… He has ever said that it was not communicative…

It's true. He studied his characteristics and didn't look like a leader. His discourse was complex, abstract… What did he transmit then? Life model: I didn't want anything for myself, I wanted people to develop their skills, I worked for the person to grow up, not asking for anything for himself. He never held charges...

And yet, he was the leader. And you too…

I don't love anyone. For example, I went out into the street and I'm no one. Shopping, showing my ID and nobody knows me, I'm anonymous. Bravo! There are people who don’t want it because they need symbols: a hymn, a flag…

Something the person needs! In our country before, God was all-powerful. Now we have divinized some human beings…

We have replaced God. I understand the current situation ... Look, when it comes to a project, I am more concerned about its future than its past. When we look back, we start to descend the slope. Many people tend to extol their past: “Yesterday we were better than today,” he says, but it’s not true, you just have to see, read. Even if it is a historical novel! The world today is not right, but we come from much worse.

This is what the musician Luis de Pablo told us on the ARGIA pages, on the eve of the fall… The past has not been better.

We have no more to go to history. Well, if we don't turn to manipulate it, everyone wants to bring the water to their own mill. There was a time when the “anti-globalization movement” began to expand. Were they really opposed to globalization? What is the movement that disseminates the slogans on the internet before globalization, which meets in a certain place from the four shores of the world and makes a joint demonstration… Against globalization? If at least they had said “globalizing alters”! We are absolutely useless…

When it comes to thinking, you are thinking.

Yes. Look, in our society, physical exercise has spread enormously. Great! But mental exercise has not spread as much as he has. I usually walk, I do several kilometers, and I see people running, with headphones on. They have a full head, but not loaded with thoughts, but with apparatuses. And I say: “When do people think?”… And in the world of management, the same thing, people don’t think, what they have to do fulfills their day, their activity.

We have to stop ...

Stay for an hour a day. Stay and think. Ask questions and try to answer. In the business world, for example, that's what forces you to go out to the market with something different. If you don't think about it, how do you get the news to the plaza? The directors tell me over and over again: “Every day we live drowned” We are wrong on that path…

Journal.

But, as much as I say that, it's a lie. Yes, newspapers live drowned, but not because of their work, but because they want to make the collaborators next door. People like salsa. There, in confusion. Instead, putting yourself in front of the screen or on white paper is hard because you have nothing, because you have to create. The key is to create. Where are we going, if not created?