We live in a democracy, Rosa, the school is in Catalan, there is also a balance of media, many people know Catalan... Someone will tell you that the work is done.

This discourse sells a lot, so well that in groups outside the linguistic community it is thought that Catalans are always begging, protesting, talking when we want... The reality is another: you propose that 50% of the cinema is in Catalan and you seem to be asking for heaven, something histrionic, out of place. People think that everything is done in Catalan, but they come here and see that it is not so. I would like to have faith and believe that the work is done, in this way I would also be better in health, but if you want to see a cartoon movie a child can not often go to a bar, ask for coffee and you can tell them that they do not understand you.

Catalan is not a standardized language.

No, the Catalan has been banned for 300 years. Of course, he's also gone through recovery oases, but no one can assure you that he won't have to go through the red desert again. Now we are in a small oasis, I don’t know what will happen in ten years.

One of your main concerns is that the Catalan language is being emptied, so to speak, that it is spoken with Catalan words but in Spanish, or rather, like a Castilian.

That is, to think in Spanish with Catalan words. It worries me a lot, because language is not just a collection of words, it even thinks of a language. To say “Me pone como una moto” in Catalan does not make sense, there is a language that says it, we have “m’encén la sang” or “em puja la sang a la cresta” in our country. From there it makes sense this language, Catalan or whatever, because a language makes sense from the moment it is able to give a different point of view about reality.

But this is the process that the Catalan lives, the Spanish translation.

The Catalan has been lucky: he has had several geniuses at certain times. Pompeu Fabra, Antoni Maria Alcover, Joan Coromines, great writers, translators, Carles Riba. These people made a language, written, of immense quality. They did and said, oh, you have the language for the 21st century. There was no reason to worry about the spoken language, which was the language of use. Our generation is Catalan, Mallorcan Catalan myself, and not because a book has told us, not television, but because they have given me the language, my language, with an incredible orality, where King Jaume, the feats of the Mediterranean, etc., were included. The school could have been in Spanish, but Mío Cid was a Martian, my reality was completely different. The Catalan had an enormous oral wealth. When did that break? Right now, when the spoken language has been replaced by the media language, when a different orality has emerged, the Internet, polluted by television. The French have somehow gone out of their way, the Spaniards are making efforts, and the Catalans have not succeeded.

What are the obstacles to achieving this orality of the second time?

For me, dialectalization, that is, to think that a word is not spoken language, but dialectal, and therefore not common. It is the result of the fragmentation of a territory into autonomous communities or states. The verb “xalar” has a common, colloquial use in Menorca or Tarragona, but in the standard nobody uses “xalar”, people say “enjoy”. The language is therefore colloquial because it is Spanish, and “xalar” dialectalism, which is only used in certain places. How to fix that, that's the problem. If we do not put ourselves in the position to do so, we will lose an area of use, inherited, that we had guaranteed until now.

What’s wrong with political fragmentation?

From time to time they say that the Valencian language is not Catalan, which becomes a disgrace, on the basis of the slab reality. Whether it’s true or not, scientific truths don’t matter too much, not reasons, when some opposing synergies arise. That Catalan is a language, from Salses to Guardamar and from Fraga to Mao? Does it matter too much in the face of discrediting synergies? No, I don't. It is not a matter of philological arguments, but a matter of faith.

Ok, today there is no one against the Catalan language, but, as Joan Fuster said, “now they try to annihilate it by praising it.”

I can say that I defend freedom as the most authoritarian person in the world. This is using language at my convenience. I am in favour of linguistic diversity, as long as it does not mean defending a particular language. If you want English, French, Chinese, but Catalan? It’s a calca of four cats, first we should clarify if it’s Mallorcan or Valencian, if it’s Catalan it’s an imposition, if it’s Valencian, since it’s similar to Spanish, well. What do we understand by linguistic diversity? It's a trivial term.

It does happen. For example, in Valencia, the Valencian Academy has been created, but TV repeaters have been closed so that TV3 cannot be seen.

Watching TV3 has not been a political act. If TV3 has been seen in Valencia or the Balearic Islands, it is not because the politicians have had an attack of benevolence: the TV repeaters that were paid for by the people, belong to the people. It's against the people to shut them down.

Political independence is the solution for some.

There is never a single solution. If languages are living beings, like ourselves, that is, if they have the three-dimensionality that Joan Brossa said, the soul, the body, the mind, the solution cannot be one. It is true, language is not imposed today, it is proposed, and it must be accepted, a multitude of symbolic synergies must be put in place. How are these synergies implemented in democratic societies? Not with hammer blows, but through the media, for example, journalists have an important role, teachers, politicians, speeches. Can all this change from today to biennale? Of course not. The path must be made. Would independence help in this direction? It is possible, there would not be so many legal obstacles, but it would be necessary to do the same, independence alone ensures absolutely nothing, if not the tasks that independence would allow it to do.

Would you say that language depends on political will?

The future of languages depends on synergies of power, in the hands of politicians of course, but not only economic capital, media capital... everything comes into play. It’s a language market, a product that has to sell well, and if I don’t sell well, if I don’t give it prestige, that product will stay in the shade inside the closet.

How do you overcome this? Not a minority language, but is Catalan a minority language?

A minority language is one that does not have all the fields of use. But this is not the case in Catalan, if the Catalan language does not affect all areas of use, it is not because part of the speakers are not capable of using it in all areas, but because some areas of use are forbidden. A trained Catalan speaker is able to have all the language records. Although the Catalan language is forbidden in cinemas, it is included when there is a small hole. Therefore, the Catalan language is not minorized, it is forbidden, it is different.

You said forbidden now. You usually use dry terminology in your writings, linguistic genocide, colonization...

The term is said to be an unambiguous word. When language explains itself, it is difficult for words to be an absolute term. Language is just another instrument of a society. As part of society, language is full of prejudice. Prejudices are necessary to some extent, they defend us, terms, words are necessary to protect us. The problem comes when I defend myself if I bother you. If I say that they have committed linguistic genocide with my language, it does not bother me, but it will bother those who consciously or unconsciously commit genocide. Terms are not neutral, they are the product of dynamics.

Bilingualism, for example, was a key term until recently.

Being bilingual means being able to use more than one language in all areas of use. An alternative to two languages? When, in the same area of use? No, I don't. If you use one, you can't use the other. Terms are used according to fashion. Such as Diglossia. Diglosia means that some fields of use are reserved for a language, but this is not the case, I can use all the records of Catalan.

But you don't. They won't let you?

One language is forbidden and the other is not. But, for example, there are people who say that Catalan prohibits Spanish. It is one of the speeches: the Catalan language puts the Spanish language at risk. First, I don’t know how many billions speak Spanish, XV-XVI. It has been a colonial language since the 20th century. For the moment, I am not overwhelmed by their situation. Catalan is not a colonial language, it is part of its territory, and its territory has been occupied. And, on the contrary, when the Catalan takes the step to adopt the areas of use, it puts the Spanish language at risk and not only in Catalonia, it puts the entire Spanish language at risk! It is absurd.

How do such speeches take root?

They are prejudices, easy to enter into society, because they act with a very basic thing of the human being, fear. Fear demands protection, it appeals to the bowels. The Catalans are coming! It works, they are speeches that raise leaders, they are always used by more totalitarian leaders. To a lesser extent, anyone can use them, for example to dominate a child, it is very easy. Playing with language moves the human species, we need words. Imagine how easy it is to move a community through the word. If I say, “if the Catalan language is established in Catalonia there will be 2,000 jobs at risk”, it is enough that someone wants to publish it. Believe me, these are published.

Does a language survive only if it is necessary in a territory, or can the Catalan language thrive with the current coexistence?

I believe that today a person cannot be a monolingual person, even if that language is Spanish, French, Italian. Because today the language of communication is another, English, and you must have at least some knowledge of English, you need it as a language of communication. In this, as a Catalan, I don’t feel different from a Spanish, a French, an Italian, I need to know at least two languages, territorial, my own, and communication. Then what about languages that are forbidden by another language? How do I fix that? The conflict is different; it is neither multilingualism nor bilingualism nor knowledge of languages. What can I do when speakers of a language are banned from certain areas of use? This is a political issue that needs to be resolved politically.

Is the Catalan mirror useful for Basques?

We come from different realities, different languages. When it comes to the differentiation of thought, the Basques have it better, because it is not a Romanesque language. It is true that you and we have the same occupation pattern, the occupation processes always have the same parameters, but the languages are different, the dynamics, and each one has to look at his home to act according to his own dynamics. You don’t have to copy the neighbor or follow a model because what has served me doesn’t serve you. We can take a small percentage from Quebec, for example.

And something not to repeat?

It’s not what the Catalans did, it’s what the Basques did to us. To insult yourself on the street for speaking your language has no name, it is not human; to do this in your own home, too. Most people are like us, but we're talking about us now. We must not have the attitude of victim, I say to you as women and as Catalans. We are products of some synergies, yes, the problem is that not everyone is aware of what we are products of some synergies, because prejudices are very simple, people think that it bothers them in their language. Changing dynamics is relatively easy if you put other energy into circulation, but as long as there is this present energy, it is difficult. The subject of languages is difficult, there is no mathematical formula, and sometimes small things change big things, not everything depends on us.