We were surprised to learn that the faculty of the University of the Basque Country is dedicated to food and culture, since we considered the Vitoria-Gasteiz as a sociolinguist: “The sociolinguist me? That label has been hung up on me, and I'm proud and happy, but it hasn't been my choice. I am a sociologist by training and then a militant of the Basque language. These two things have come together, and I have never rejected that label.”

You wrote that most scholars have a more mature sociolinguistic attitude than in the past.

We’ve come a long way, we have years of experience. I always give an example; it would have been around 1978-79, I studied in Deusto, in a group of neighbors that revolved around the Basque language it was said: “We will give a period of five years for all people to learn Basque and we will send what they have not learned during that period.” This was the level of knowledge we had about sociolinguistics. It was accompanied by the fact that the use came only with learning and that everything was on track. Look where we started. Fortunately, that is far behind us. Now we know what language recovery is. We haven't figured it out yet...

..the magic formula?

Of course it is! (laughing) . But we are conscious of the effort that this requires, of the difficulties it has... there is something. Nowadays the level of knowledge of the dialect is high and I can talk about it. I taught at the university, lectures in the dialect... You only had to say the first four things, people would be surprised and fascinated by what they heard, because it was a discovery. You have to be prepared today to say something.

They respond to you.

You are defrauding them. If you teach a course, you see the level of people through the exercises. In Hiznet itself you can see the level of the people: to answer this, oyster! In this sense, the dialect has made tremendous strides.

The dialect format is yes, but it says that we must win the battle of public opinion.

Pioneering is very much in front of it, it is well dressed to be able to face challenges, but language is part of this society, and it is necessary for the language to survive that society assumes all the vicissitudes of this language. Unlike Basque language a few years ago, society is not conscious of what language recovery is, how hard it is, what involvement is needed... If society is not conscious of the dangers of language, then the situation is not ideal.

Do we take into account the fact that public opinion is not the opposite, but rather a pro-Basque attitude?

The attitude of the street has changed a lot in the last thirty years. A few years ago, knowing Basque was admirable in front of most people, for example in Vitoria: “Do you know Spanish? How lucky you are!” Not only is this not the case today, but the speech that has taken root is the following: language is an imposed matter, it must be learned by chance, even if reluctantly. You are required to work and because of this it is often used as an instrument of discrimination. This was the discourse that broke out almost ten years ago and has also spread to unthinkable environments, such as those that are not militant but dialect.

We have come to believe this, that is, the obligation.

This discourse originated in non-Basque environments, but it has spread to this point. The battle of public opinion is there, otherwise Basque will have no future. After all, if society thinks that it is not necessary to make an effort for this language that is in a minority situation, but that it is necessary to walk with a good “rollito”... then yes, we will always bet on the language that is the main one and that’s it. So there's no awkward situation for anyone, right? But where does language go with these approaches? It’s about training people and making them aware of how important the daily struggle of language, the struggle of the Trincheras, is. Many people do not know this and still think that sending their children to school is enough.

It is necessary to help people to reflect, otherwise, on the one hand, the discourse of imposition, and on the other hand, economist pragmatism prevails. It is necessary to awaken reflection in the hands of new parameters, one of which is the ecology of languages, equality... This discourse is very philosophically rounded. The thing is, as with many philosophies, it doesn’t have the strength in everyday life.

What do you mean by that?

Believe it or not, even with great persuasion, look at how hungry you are in the world. What Do We Do About Hunger? Nothing at all. What is our daily practice of ecology? Let the computer work at night to download the movie, take the car because if not I have to wait more to catch the bus... It is one thing to convince and another to put that conviction into practice. The discourse of language ecology is very consistent in itself, but when it is applied there is no place to approach it, some support is needed to mature well.

Now they’re working in the business world and it’s beautiful.

And have they found support?

If we can incorporate this powerful abstract philosophy into the core of the system, that is, the economy, then yes. With the increasing knowledge and use of languages in companies, let’s see who is able to say, “no to Basque, eh!”. It’s hard; if you have to accept Chinese, German and others why not Basque? It is a matter of reflecting on what language is for, under what conditions... How to find balance without damaging any language.

You're doing it for function distribution?

For example, for example. The fact is that this discourse, because all languages have a right, is accepted in the business world and can be an interesting line of work. In addition, the Basque technicians who work in this world have a very solid formation, from this point of view we are in very good conditions.

On the other hand, in my reflection for the Meeting Point I propose a new discourse, not the only discourse in favor of the Basque language, as it has been until now, that is, based mostly on identity. The Basque language has moved in the approaches of patriotism. That's good, it's good for me, but it's not good for everyone.

You say, however, that the concept of personality has served to motivate us in the use of Basque and that we have not found a substitute for it. Is there anything else?

The language ecology. In addition, they can be complementary, depending on how the discourse built on patriotism is managed. For example, I’ve read a nice article that goes so far as to mention the Midwayers. I mean, we're going to have to attract midwives, too. Yeah, but how? “Our language, the Basque language, must be unique”, and with these we will attract the Midwayers? This is exclusionary. That is why I say to many, fortunately, this force created in the personality is necessary for us, it serves us, but what do we do with those who do not feel patriotic?

What is needed is a more inclusive discourse that transcends ideologies and for this the discourse of the ecology of languages is valid. In addition, if you include nationalist discourse and language ecology, there are two reasons to bet on the language. When it's unique, the motive is yes, but it's weaker. You have two reasons and the only possibility of not creating disturbances in Basque society, because otherwise it is very easy to create disturbances with language fluctuations.

In Vitoria-Gasteiz you have given lectures to the elderly on the subject of language. Those who had internalized the imposition’s discourse have approached you later by saying, “You have given us a lesson in tolerance.” You've managed to provoke some consciousness.

When we have prejudices it is often due to a lack of knowledge. You know the situation and then you begin to understand it, and once you understand the situation, each piece has its place. The worst thing is ignorance, with that we are not going anywhere, because they are all prejudices, pros or cons, but like donkeys, blindly. In addition, when you are ignorant, you argue through clichés, “yes!”, “no!”.
Cliches, given by others.

Yes, yes, of course. That’s why it’s so important to know and understand. In this way you are better able to understand, and perhaps even accept, the other’s approach. This is the current challenge, society must make Basque its own and in ignorance it will not make it its own. What is happening in the city is: “There is a community in the country.” But you belong to the cultural association, you belong to the Basque language, the language is a matter of everyone, not of the Basque association.

You learned Russian at a later time. You talked about overcoming ignorance, forming public opinion. How did you convince yourself to learn Spanish, or how did you convince yourself?

When I was 12 years old I went to the summer camp in Sitges [Catalonia]. We were 25 non-Basque and 75 Catalan. The Catalans did it in Catalan, the Basquites of Álava did it in Spanish. In the dining room we helped and the hangos did it to me in Catalan. I knew a little French, I understood them and I followed them. Once I didn't understand him and: “But you’re not Catalan?”, “No, I’m Basque”, “Then you’ll know in Basque”, “Well... something...”, “Say something in Basque”, “Dogs out!” I didn't even know about Tuti. That made me think.

That worked at that time.

Nekane Jausoro and I did some work on the Basques. We studied why some Basques take the plunge and start talking, and why others, even if they reach a good level, don’t take the leap to use it.

I went to college when I was 25 and decided to go with the Basques. At the time, there were no planned strategies to make the transition to use in teaching, in the Basque language, there were a series of conversation sessions, which were generally not obligatory. I’ve often said it was a scam. Everyone who started learning had to be informed that they had to reach a level of competence, but that from one level onwards they had to practice so many hours a week. That was not said. If he didn’t cheat on himself, he had to be honest, whether with his mother, with his gang or at work, practicing Basque.