Following the war between Ukraine and Russia, it appears that society has become aware of the need to welcome refugees. Why now and not before?

Even when the body of the Syrian child Aylan appeared on the coast of Turkey, people became aware that there were refugees and that there were wars. Last summer, when the Taliban regained power in Afghanistan, there was also great solidarity with women and girls in the region. When there are such blows, society suddenly realizes that there are refugees.

But what is going on with Ukraine? Well, many say it badly, in Chapter II. This is the first war that is taking place in Europe after the World War and, as we are close, people believe that this can happen here too.

In this sense, we have heard all kinds of barbarities, both on the street and in many media: “they are like us,” and of that kind. What would you say to anyone who says that?

Well, they're like us. But not only the people of Ukraine; there are also people like us in Syria, Afghanistan or Albania, also in Senegal; they are black, but they are our equals.

We too, like them, have had to leave on several occasions, either fleeing war or as economic migrants. For example, one time, a woman told me that her son had gone to Norway to seek work and that they had received him there as a migrant. He did not understand that his son was also an immigrant; he thought that he was a European and that he had to be accepted in a different way, but that is not the case. Racism is very much involved in our DNA.

People have to talk to those who come to our country and also to the young people who come from Senegal or Nigeria. Most are university students or have some higher learning and are able to speak at least three languages. In addition, here they are learning, some in Basque, others in Spanish, and there are also those who are doing it in both.

As regards refugees from Ukraine, they have been claiming asylum since 2014, particularly in the countries of eastern Ukraine. However, so far this “phenomenon” has not been given sufficient importance...

It is clear that NATO and the European Union have interests there. Now it seems that the war in Ukraine is something that comes against “us”: before it was a conflict between the Ukrainians, against a particular group of local society, and somehow we did not get into that, but now it seems that the balance of Europe is waning and there are also economic interests, such as gas and cereals. Until now it has looked far away in Europe, like those outside our borders.

It must be remembered, however, that this is not the first war that has taken place within Europe. Since the World War, where is the Bosnian War of the 1990s. In that they were also “like us”, and it was at the heart of Europe, but it seems that this conflict has been forgotten.

So what's going on? I believe there are specific interests behind that. In addition, the media have a responsibility in this: if the focus is in one place, that is the only thing that will be seen. It is true that in this war we no longer know what information is and what propaganda is; there are many open channels, and both information and counterinformation are available to all. Consequently, disinformation predominates. Anyway, it seems that the West needed an enemy, and now it's Russia.

The Spanish Ministry of the Interior has put in place a rapid permit for refugees arriving from Ukraine to Afghanistan. What does it consist of?

When applying for the permit, they acquire the rights to reside here, immediately after their arrival. Those who come from other countries find that hard, because they have to prove things like having lived here for three years. So the Ukrainians come with the guarantee of almost all civil rights and, with that legal certainty, they know that no one is going to expel them.

It should be remembered, however, that this is the only thing that happens to women and children. Deserters or injunctions are not included for this purpose. In fact, in Ukraine all men have been forcibly mobilized, and if any of them flee, when they return, they will probably be punished by imprisonment or death. In this regard, I believe it is important to reflect on the war: Why can't a person give up the war?

On the other hand, although it is now settled, only in the beginning was coverage given to those who had Ukrainian nationality; that is to say: Foreigners resident in Ukraine were not protected under this license. Now, however, all women and children who come from Ukraine are protected.

How is being welcomed in Euskal Herria?

It's going through everything. It is true that many Ukrainians have not contacted us, but we know what is going on. In the Basque Country, the Basque Country, the children of Ukraine have been welcomed for years, and thus, year after year, the families that have welcomed the children have been welcomed. But there are other cases where they have come without any kind of protection. We have heard that in some cases they have had to go there to go to Barcelona later, so they have had to spend the night here. For fear, the health workers have needed the help of the Ertzaintza to access a shelter, which has been built by the Basque Government and which was actually closed. At that time they had to be moved elsewhere, but they could not be received. Finally, a hotel was paid in Donostia-San Sebastian where a number of volunteers were accommodated to serve these people.

That is just one example, but that is what is happening here. The Basque Government has made a great deal of propaganda, as it has done on many previous occasions; it may say that there are many places available, but in reality this is not the case. In addition, there are a number of people who have gone on their own to the borders of Ukraine to bring refugees from Crimea. It is true that they are then easy to introduce into the system, but things must not be done in any way, fugitives must be given security.

In this regard, not many years ago, several activists moved to Greece to bring people fleeing Syria to our country. In this case, the Spanish Government went against them for human trafficking...

Yes, in such cases the Government is totally hypocritical. The same applies to those who, on their way from Irun to France, are helping migrants to cross the border. They are making arrests, they have enormous difficulties in passing. It is true that, in these cases, when there is no money at stake, there is no condemnation for the assistants.

In recent days emigrants from the Spanish State are collecting signatures in favour of regularizing their situation. What is the project?

“Regularization now! The project is called “We are basic” and a massive collection of signatures is being carried out in favour of the regularisation of the conditions of people in irregular administrative situations. The People’s Legislative Initiative (ILP) needs to collect 500,000 signatures so that the topic under discussion can be transferred to the Spanish Congress of Deputies.

After all, migrants want to live without fear, without the need to hide. Now Ukrainians are coming and they have every guarantee that they can go to the doctor and learn. People need it, all people have the right to move freely, because there is room for everyone.

What do you read from the Ongi Etorri Errefuxiatuak group about this situation?

Among us is a group called No to War, and the reading we do in that is the opposite of war. We are seeing governments take advantage of increasing the budget for weapons of war in Ukraine, and we are against that. We're very critical of war, and we don't think it's the right thing to feed war.

We are also seeing that geopolitically there are several positions and that the hypocrisy of Europe is tremendous. We always say that borders must be opened between countries, but not only for Europeans or whites, but for the whole world.