Groucho Marx likes Adolfo Muñoz (Mañueta, Álava, 1959); it can be said that in recent years he has carried over this famous “brought wood, this is war”. “When it’s raw, the message can’t be wet.” He knows that this has helped those who ‘caricaturize’ their image, but by looking back he does not regret that ‘messages have not been more liquid’. "Here's a plunder, that's what counts."

Have you left it all tied and well tied?

We have always been very careful about relief. The union model is not at issue: we will continue in the counterpart, that is not discussed in ALS. From there, our rules say that you have to leave office from an age [60 years]. The aim is for there to be a relay, for it to be produced and for work to be done.

You have been secretary general for many years, and you have noticed wear and tear. Has this rule come to you at the right time?

Well, I don't reach the age of eleven; José Elorrieta did twenty.

There have been different times...

Yes. It's been the last few years... In 2008, when I took office, no one thought they were going to come to such tough years. The crisis has been severe for all the militants, but we have been strengthened. For us the crisis is not over, but the crisis has made us stronger.

Did the working class sleep deeply in 2008?

I don't think so. What is happening is that the crisis has brought tough discipline in all policies, and also across Europe. That was Greece. And some have seen a great opportunity to bury social policies, privatise them, etc., as well as to eliminate all opposition, including trade unionism. They've leveraged fear to discipline themselves. In short, the crisis has brought more neoliberalism and authoritarianism.

Is the government authoritarian?

There is no Bolsonaro here, but the Basque Government applies a great authoritarianism through the official journal.

What title do you expect after Mitxel Lakuntza took the witness: that a historical leader leaves? What is the leader who has led ALS to radicalism?

ELA goes on, and it goes on with strength. We will remain firm in the confrontation.

I asked for you, for the person.

Once I read Ortuzar: ‘It is impossible for anything that comes to be worse than this’. But at the time of Elorrieta the same was said. In the words of the Secretary-General, there is a collective reflection.

Personal relationships also play an important role.

But I've never had problems at that level. I was also once with the newly appointed lehendakari; then he did not want to be with us again. A clientelist society is being promoted which jeopardises democracy itself. ELA owes nothing to the government, it is autonomous to criticise. Look, Urkullu tried to meet us a year and a half ago, we told him yes, but we gave a press conference to criticize the budgets and the mediator called us to tell us that the meeting had been suspended.

It leaves, but it looks like it's in full shape. Does the government question democracy?

If you think you're doing some favor in some field, you don't admit any criticism. Because we are in a post-democratic era, and yes, democracy is on top.

Before being appointed secretary-general, he was already a militant for 30 years...

Yes, I started at 17.

All life in unionism. Who has given more to whom: trade unionism to you or you to trade unionism?

I owe a lot to ALS, even as a person. I have had three basic areas: the first, that of family members. I owe a lot to my partner, who has recognized our life. The second area is that of friends, thanks to whom I began to want to know more, in politics and in unionism. I entered ALS in 1976, at the height of the events of March 3. Cegasa's colleagues were always arguing.

Were you also on strike?

No, in Cegasa no, but we live it all close, of course. I am very aware of this. That environment conditions you in what you're going to be. And that brings me to the third area: trade unionism. Every day I've learned something within ALS. Here, knowledge is a socialist good.

Power often creates dependency, fear withdrawal syndrome?

No, under no circumstances. I'm not going to retire yet, and I'm going to keep up with the present day.

What have been the best times in these 11 years and what have been the worst?

I've lived the best in a labor conflict when I've seen people laughing and crying because they've won. There's nothing better. The saddest thing is that workers cannot avoid unemployment. You know that a lot of people are waiting for poverty. And also when a worker dies in need.

You are natural from Rioja Alavesa, from Baños de Ebro. Are you going to disconnect your hometown?

Very rarely. I'm a trade unionist because my father didn't have vineyards. If he had, we would not come to Vitoria, he would not have been a construction worker. We've had a humble family, and that's also conditioned me.

You're passionate about mountaineering. The next summit?

I have a big back injury, and now I'm very limited. I frequent the Cirauqui, the village of my wife, and I have always addressed the mountain. But now is the time to take care of myself.

How does the press see? I'm sure you've been given fair reviews, but have you ever felt the dirty game?

They personalize criticism to be more effective in stigmatizing. We're 100,000 members, and we have a 41 percent representation, which stigmatizes that. They have come to the cartoons and then they have come out of the meetings many surprised, saying that ‘he is a normal person’.

Could the grit of your words have helped?

The cruelty of the problems and honesty are compatible. We've never insulted anyone, and it's clear to us that if we flush the message to get it better, we'll end up confusing people. We do not want to satisfy everyone.

Obviously, the institutions in general are not happy with you.

We do not expect anything on the right. Neoliberalism and authoritarianism is what moves us, and in this group we include the PNV. There are a lot of red lines going on that Democrats should not go through.

Which line?

The decree institutionalizing social dialogue, for example, so that the agreements are made in a minority with the approval of the lehendakari... That is not the attitude of a democrat.

Let's talk to the left. Will you become the leader who prevented a strategic alliance with LAB?

No. The potential capacity of the ELA/LAB alliance hypothesis has never been seen. When we arrived at Lizarra-Garazi, we told LAB that this pact was between classes and that we had to build a new model together, from the social base. At the Mallabia summit in 1999, we told them that, among other things, we had to talk about a resistance box in order not to compete with each other. Two unions, one model.

And ...

We were told that this was an aggressive public offer to buy. Then, they said that those of us who made that proposal didn't know the left Abertzale. And there were those who clearly said that ‘it is now up to us to grow’. We all thought ETA wouldn't come back and LAB predicted it was going to grow a lot. The alliance was not possible.

Twenty years have passed since then. It is not possible now either. You make great criticism of LAB and EH Bildu, it seems that you are trying to increase your distance from them. You're angry at the PNV, but maybe not so angry, right?

We believed that after ETA the left would turn left, but today it does not want any commitment to us. There is Kutxabank, the negotiation of the CAV budgets, the management that they did in Gipuzkoa, to tell Navarra the political and social change...

EH Bildu and LAB have to say "amen" to everything ALS proposes for a strategic alliance?

No, by no means, but through the newspapers we have been able to know their position on certain issues. And their attitude is legitimate, but it is also legitimate for us to criticise what has happened to popular legislative initiatives. We have heard the left-wing leaders saying that social issues are not profitable. The PNV has said to the Abertzale left that it forgets the unions if it wants to enter the institutions or the system.

It's an indictment ...

Our criticism of the Abertzale left is not a criticism of contempt, but a critique of resentment.

I understand that ALS has no responsibility if a possible strategic alliance cannot be achieved.

In the contents of the last communiqué we signed with LAB, we don't see the political left, really.

But LAB is not a political party. LAB's responsibilities are LAB's, right?

But that's why I've explained where we came from. We have not seen what a capacity of the majority of trade unions can be, because the Abertzale left wants country agreements with the PNV. On the Abertzale left, some people in charge say that we have to differentiate what has priority, and they see the unions as a kind of cherpa. We are not the ambition of anyone, we have our own interests.

LAB has always been the Abertzale left and has always been the union.

That's right. The LAB syndicate has always been part of the Abertzale left, and we have to think about what we want the alliance for. We do not want it to be an instrument for partitioning.

Do you say it looking at EH Bildu?

To us the Abertzale left has recognized that the PNV is not working with the perspective of the right to decide. The PNV says that the one who leaves the Gasteiz Parliament cannot create problems in Madrid, because “we will not be hostage to EH Bildu,” they say. Ortuzar pulls his chest out because in Spain they have never had so much influence. And Urkullu appears in the newspapers, disregarding social mobilization. If there is no PNV, why insist on that path? The aim of the PNV is to comply with the Gernika Statute, and it is selling the involution as if it were a victory.

Is ELA today the guardian of sovereignty?

We do not believe in the attempt being made by the Left. They tell us about the transfer of competences, and then you can't make public job offers or raise salaries, because there are limits in Madrid. The political left can make its decisions, but because LAB is part of it, it's also going to condition LAB.

You've gotten into politics. In collective bargaining, there are also differences between ALS and LAB. You seem to be further away than ever.

If we put precariousness, labour poverty and the wage gap at the basis of union action, we have to go forcibly, creating labour conflicts; otherwise there will be no achievements. And LAB says it wants short, effective strikes ... There is no glass ball to know when a strike will result. LAB, in its day to day, looks more like CCOO and UGT than we do. We have not gone crazy, the strike is not an objective, but a means. We have deep discrepancies with LAB, and they're not going to be solved right away.

ELA will have a Navarro Secretary General to negotiate with the CAV authorities. Have you also chosen Mitxel Lakuntza for territoriality?

Navarre is Basque Country. They did not ask us when they were Biscayan, Gipuzkoan or Alaveses.

They will therefore be from four territories, but there will still be no women.

We have chosen the most appropriate person. However, in the union we have had a great transformation in terms of gender: Of the 36 members of the National Commission, 21 are women, and more than half are women. In ALS, women are driving this evolution.

This interview was made and published by Berria, thanks to the free licenses Creative Commons we have brought it to ARGIA.