Ruben Wagensberg and Jesús Rodríguez are in exile in Switzerland. One is a member of the ERC in the Catalan Parliament and another journalist in the Catalan Direct Weekly. Both are accused by the Spanish judiciary, like ten others, of a crime of terrorism and a violation of human rights. Among the accused are Carles Puigdemont and Marta Rovira.

In particular, Wagensberg is responsible for the events that took place at Prat airport in Barcelona, because he was allegedly in the organization of the Democratic Tsunami; and Rodríguez, the National Court accused him of a terrorist offence for having had a month before the roadblocks occurred, and links him directly to the Tsunami organization.

The Democratic Tsunami was a movement that emerged in the fall of 2019, in a context in which resolutions were received that strongly condemned the independence leaders. Thousands upon thousands of people were angry in the streets. There were mass demonstrations such as congestion at Prat airport in Barcelona.

Next Monday we will publish a full interview with Wagensberg and Rodríguez. Progress is what you have below.

At the time of recording this interview, the Amnesty Act, which was passed on Thursday, is about to be adopted. What can be expected from there? What will it bring for you?

Jesús Rodríguez: Hundreds of cases will be resolved by the Amnesty Act, but we will be left out. From the very beginning, the invited actors – private and popular accusations – of Judge Manuel García-Castellón come into play: Vox, Dignity and Justice, Societat Civil Catalana, Guardia Civil... We will try to bring our proceedings to the extreme by means of allegations.

Ruben Wagensberg: We trust the European Court of Justice. A possible resolution may force the Spanish judiciary to apply amnesty to us as well. If so, we will celebrate. But in a moderate way. We are aware that it is going to be a political victory, but the independence purposes are not over there.

Rodríguez: Three avenues are now being opened with the adoption of the Amnesty Act. One, apply the law directly to us, and we will ask that it be, but they will not allow us. And the other two paths are oriented towards Europe: either it will be the judges themselves who address the consultation, arguing that they have doubts about the application of the law or not; or we will go once we receive the resounding refusal of the Spanish judiciary. We will have to see what happens to the arrest and detention measures when the matter is in Europe. And the accusations are expected to lead to the issue in the Constitution, where they are also able to prolong. Whatever comes, if it comes from Europe in our favour, it is not the same in receiving that resolution that PSOE-Sumar in the Spanish Government than PP-Vox... Or if the government of Sánchez fell, it would surely also change the representative change in the Constitutional... There are many factors that will influence. No forecasts can be made.

Twelve people are accused of terrorism and human rights violations. Why you?

Wagensberg: Because we've been tracked with some Israeli software and found some messages so we can be held accountable. But nothing is proven. That we organize for demonstrations, that we come together, that we debate a lot ... Tens of thousands of other people surely sent similar messages during those days. In the interviews that have been detected I say that, in my opinion, the objective should be to start a dialogue with the Spanish state, but we also had to protest about what was happening to tell the world. The motto Spain sit and talk – Spain, sit and talk – came out of there, deeply theorized about civil disobedience... Many people would have had those exchanges of messages during those days.

What did everyone try to do in supposedly safe and anonymized applications? This is because we have a background in the Spanish state, because a machine has been charged for the placement of ashtrays. Therefore, Tsunami was not a “criminal organization.” Anyone who has the possibility to view the summary will make sure that the tests we oppose are very weak. Nor has it been shown that we were communicating among the twelve, and we did not even know each other.

Rodríguez: If we make a more in-depth analysis of the Tsunami case, it is clear that the cars and the consequences of the judge were foreseen. They have analyzed interviews with 300 people, 26 of whom are journalists and 240,000 pages of the summary. Thousands of interviews, audios, CDs, phones and confiscated computers were detected, which is collected in spiders... All this has been through special forensic programs for analysis. For me, the key is: That Carles Puigdemonte and Marta Rovira should be in the case. I spoke to a person close to Puigdemont, the name of the exiled president appeared and, therefore, I also go inside.

Two phases need to be distinguished from the question: April and November 2023. In April, according to public information from the newspaper El Mundo, several people were investigating. I contacted the Spanish Ministry of the Interior, through my lawyer, and they told me there that I was not being investigated, that at that time there were no messages talking about Puigdemont, and that I could be quiet, that journalism was just information. That's what they passed on to me. The second phase of the lawsuit begins after the elections to the Spanish Courts, when the PSOE and Pedro Sánchez needed the support of the independence parties in order to form a government. When they were negotiating the Amnesty Act, when the media debate was fashionable, when it was known that they were very focused on negotiating a law ... It was then that they found the above-mentioned message. Why then? Because the script was written beforehand. And the script is that neither Puigdemont nor Rovira can enter the Amnesty Law. The necessary messages were found, and as the texts of the Amnesty Law were being refined, Judge García-Castellón has further strengthened the crime of terrorism.

Wagensberg: New actors also appear. For example, two police officers who claim to be victims of terrorism. And you'll remember, at the airport mobilizations, the French tourist who died of a heart attack.

Rodríguez: The judge has actively participated in the search for new figures. It expressly called on the Civil Guard to identify the family of that French tourist, to come to them and to consider themselves victims of terrorism to "offer them the opportunity". All this happened after the July elections, when the Amnesty Law was negotiated. Amazing for some, predictable for others.

ARGIA meets in Switzerland with Ruben Wagensberg and Jesús Rodríguez to discuss the exile they live in, the Democratic Tsunami and the political-judicial issue against him. They have spoken long and hard. On Monday we will publish the full interview.