LARA has also requested an interview with the municipal government of Deba and the head of the Basque Library Service of the Basque Government, but has received back denials from both. The Mar Aramendi Urbieta and Eska Eguskizaga Bilbao of the group For All, which is made up of several local parents, have told us about the circumstances of such an unusual situation in the municipal library of Ostolaza in Deba.

Tell us: how is Deba’s library and how is it organized?

Location of Mar Aramendi: It has differentiated spaces: there is a space with a closed door, a study room or a silent room; another large area, an adult library with several tables; and a third space, a children’s and youth library, with walls and a door of its own. In addition, in addition to the librarian of the general library, there is only one other librarian in charge of the children's library at work during the whole activity, morning and afternoon.

Children under 2 years of age are not allowed in the Deba library. Of the seven hours that the library is open, only 2-6 year olds can be in the children's library at a specific time, from 4:30 p.m. to 5:30 p.m. (so, for example, they can't be together with their slightly older siblings for the other hours). They also have other time restrictions up to 15 years. Where is that rule written?

More places to stay in Aramendi: The timetable is at the door of the library and on the website, but when we asked the city council for the regulations, two documents were sent to us, subject to the rules of the children's and young people's library, where no age restrictions are specified. Therefore, the hourly prohibitions they apply in practice are not covered by the regulation.

And why does Deba's library have such an unusual practice?

The wish of Eguskizaga: We don’t know that anywhere else. One of the reasons they have given us since the municipal government is that they have been working in this way for twenty years (sometimes they decorate the phrase, they say it is "the result of twenty years of experience"), as a reason in itself. They argue that children make noise and interfere with the quiet environment that the library demands, annoying other users. They told us in meetings.

Publicly, the municipal government did not mention the noise in its statement arguing for a reduction in children’s hours, but says that changing the measure, which is to allow children to be present when they want, can “complicate coexistence”, can affect “other user groups”.

Location of Eguskizaga: Among the solutions that we have put on the table, we have asked them to carry out a pilot test to see if coexistence deteriorates, because in twenty years there has been no real coexistence, as access to a group of citizens is limited. We have been accustomed to cohabitation between adults, and we understand that cohabitation is a mutual contact between the different; of course, to guarantee cohabitation there must be some rules, but instead of putting the rule, “you have to be silent, you have to talk low”, and to impose consequences according to it, they have put the prohibition before, there is no possibility of consequences and they have received the penalty before making noise. In addition, adults can make some noises (because we make them), but if children do it it is not acceptable.

When I mentioned the case in the background, I noticed that some have imagined that children go to the library to play, to use it as a children’s corner, as an excuse to protect themselves when it rains... and that adults only read books. What would you say to those who think so?

More places to stay in Aramendi: I got that idea from the City Council. They went to the library to get permission to organize an illustration workshop and told us that it is not a library, and they have also said that the children’s library is not a place for the evening. Who decides what we are going to do? In adulthood we do not use that look, adults go to read, write, even the pastime... and nobody will tell them anything. It is a public service and we should all have the right to use it.

In other villages, children are children, libraries are given a similar use... What's going on in Deba? Do Deba's kids make more noise, or what?

Location of Eguskizaga: Maybe the librarians are different and that’s the key.

More places to stay in Aramendi: There may be different ways to understand libraries, and it will be a welcome development of what the library should be.

What is denied to the 0-6 year old when he is prevented from spending more time in the library?

More places to stay in Aramendi: Stories are an indispensable tool for the development of children, and in addition, the moment that arises with what the story is reading is absolutely necessary; the library gives you those moments, but they are hindering us from the possibility and in children the negative relationship with libraries is favored. Promoting reading among children is not a good strategy.

Location of Eguskizaga: After all, the situation involves children associating the library with a place of tension.

In the note I mentioned earlier, the municipal government argues that there is no space.

More places to stay in Aramendi: The opposition demanded a study and the librarian conducted an analysis by the municipal government for five months, from February to June, to see how many people use the library. We asked that the analysis should be done by someone outside, not by the librarian who doesn’t want any changes, but they ignored us. The one who only went to deliver the book and was going to be in the library, they all got into the same sack, we didn’t agree with that either.

However, it has become clear that there is no lack of space: there are an average of five users per hour in the adult library (with 44 seats) and an average of eight users per day in the children's library (with 23 seats). The argument has no basis. And to this must be added the fact that there is the third room, the study room, separate and closed, with eighteen other seats. Why do measures that are said to be taken because of lack of space only affect children? Or if space is the concern, does it make sense to accumulate all 2-6 years in one hour, at the same time?

Location of Eguskizaga: Even in that hour there is no accumulation, because the space is not an obstacle, and because this great discomfort that affects us has meant that many people do not use a space with great potential. In addition, the argument of lack of space does not respond to other prohibitions: why can’t children under 2 be in the children’s library? Why can't they take out the library user card? We have been told that they have books for 0-2 years, which means that we can lend stories for these children and take them home, but they can not be in the library. They can be in the square, in the supermarket, in the bar... but not in the library.

More places to stay in Aramendi: Or, for example, no material from the children’s library can be borrowed from another library, and it can be borrowed from the adult library. What has this decision to do with space?

Are all the prohibitions for minors?

Location of Eguskizaga: The rules for adults are logical: you can’t eat, you can’t smoke, the books you take come back the same, the cell phones shut down... We would like these rules for our children too!

More places to stay in Aramendi: They can't even paint in the library, claiming they can ruin the books. Or recently the librarian told a child that he couldn't get in with the doll, but I got in with the shopping bag and everything and nobody told me anything.

Location of Eguskizaga: Children are not welcome in the library.

You have met with the City Council on three occasions and the issue has also been discussed in the City Council. There's been no approach?

Location of Eguskizaga: Given the course we’ve taken, we have the feeling that from the beginning they didn’t intend to change anything. They have also rejected our smallest proposal: to close the door of the children’s library (if noise is the problem); to reorganize the space (hemeroteca, DVDs and where they are...), to carry out a pilot test to see if it affects coexistence...

He's in charge with six councilors. He has six more and now a Deba platform. What does the opposition say?

More places to stay in Aramendi: We have met with the opposition and they have expressed their support, but we do not want to politicize the issue.

Location of Eguskizaga: Right now, in view of the deadlock we are in, we are going to turn to all the political parties again, with the intention of talking to everyone and guiding the issue. Now the Deba platform, for example, has not even appeared at the meetings so far. The current mayor has been a librarian for years before, and we think that has a lot of weight in all of this.
As the Library of Deba is part of the Basque Library Network, you have also turned to the Library Service of the Basque Government for its intervention.

More places to stay in Aramendi: We have not received an official response, but the chief of service told us by email that they will not intervene. He argued that the powers are those of the City Council. He referred to the articles of the Spanish Constitution, which states that the Constitution guarantees the autonomy of the peoples and that the management and organization of cultural activities is the responsibility of the municipality. He also told us about the Library Act, which is general and doesn’t say anything about it, that there is a vacuum there.

Would it not be necessary to intervene if there was discrimination against children?

More places to stay in Aramendi: The truth is that we have been very surprised by the answer, because the Deba library is part of the Library Network and the Library Service is responsible for managing the libraries that are part of the network. Escaping this responsibility seems serious to us, and the intervention can be carried out in many ways, from a decalogue of good practices to a brochure of recommendations on how to work for the libraries that are on the Net, at the request of a minimum. Imagine that the child from another village, 0-2 years old, can come to the library and borrow a book because he has the card taken out in his library, but the child from Deba can not. Since they all belong to the same network, the Government Library Service should intervene to coordinate and make sense of all this. We have also asked him to act as an intermediary between the municipal government and us.

Location of Eguskizaga: Our feeling is that they didn’t want to enter, but if they do, they have the ramifications, even the legal ones, to address the issue. In fact, the Law on Libraries, to which the service has referred, also requires library owners to “guarantee the right of users to have equal access to libraries and without any discriminatory treatment.” Article 14 states that: “Public reading network libraries (...) shall be open to all citizens regardless of age, race, sex, religion, nationality or social status.” Mention age on purpose.

You've even gone to the Ombudsman.

More places to stay in Aramendi: Yeah, we hit him in May last year, seeing as it's a matter of rights. But look, the answer has been that it will not intervene, and among the arguments is the law cited by Domingo [Miguel Ángel Domingo is the head of the Basque Library Service], about the competences of the municipalities. He adds that he does not see that it is contrary to the law or that it contains legal irregularities, and that “in choosing one management model or another, it is not up to [the Ombudsman] to give an opinion.” We believe that it is very serious to consider management as a possible model that constitutes a clear discrimination against children. We responded to the Ombudsman, citing the Law on Libraries and the Law on the Protection of Children and Adolescents, but we did not receive anything back. We will return to the Ombudsman, however, with the addition of the testimonies of the citizens.

Location of Eguskizaga: The Ombudsman's response has been a blow to us, we have felt helpless.

Do you feel supported by your fellow citizens?

More places to stay in Aramendi: We collected 500 signatures in the village asking for these library measures to be changed, and it was a great thing. We have also had the support of many of Deba’s agents (parents’ association, leisure agents...) and we are happy in this regard. We have also organized street libraries, open spaces for everyone, and the fact that so many people have come to them is for us a sign of a need that exists in Deba. There is a demand for citizenship and the municipal government should respond responsibly rather than passing a shift.

What is the place and role of children in other libraries?

Location of Eguskizaga: Now that we’re asking for the basics at Deba, we’re seeing a lot of initiatives in other libraries to attract people to the library: theater workshops, illustration workshops, scape rooms, storytelling, spaces to share languages from different communities...

More places to stay in Aramendi: It is significant that: In the atrium of Deba’s library, there is the area “Actions to stimulate reading” in the adult section, while in the children section there is no such area because there are no programs aimed at children. There is only one workshop held by the writer Yolanda Arrieta, that is, until reaching the sixth grade of Primary Education, nothing is aimed at children.

On the occasion of the Book Day, an old story will be told in the library. The municipal government has accepted the request made by the storytellers of Deba, and given the situation, there is a small, encouraging step for us.

And when you tell the librarians of other countries, your parents... what happens in Deba, what do they tell you?

Location of Eguskizaga: The surprise caused by the situation is overwhelming, it is unbelievable to many, and the feeling is that it is an easy subject to solve: inside the library there is a separate space for children, it has its own librarian... So, what is the problem?

More places to stay in Aramendi: It happened to us. It’s a practice that has been going on for a long time, but maybe they haven’t come together before to demand a change of measures, we created the group and we thought, “it’s going to be solved right away”, and we’re still...

Location of Eguskizaga: The fact is that people outside the village tell us that our struggle is surprising, it is such a basic demand, but there are people in the village who have become accustomed to this situation, to the point that the arguments of the municipal government seem normal; they have become accustomed to using this space in this way and to coexistence that is only between adults.

You have just come out of this “normality” and started the process of reflection on “what the library has been, what it is and what it can be”, starting with a round table, trying to build a different library among all of them.

More places to stay in Aramendi: Librarians and members of the municipal government have been the first to be invited to the round table because we think they should be present in this initiative that aims to stimulate reflection [the round table has been held after this interview and has been attended by both representatives of the municipal government and librarians]. Expert librarians will come to the village to tell us about their experience, and we hope it will be useful for reflection.

Location of Eguskizaga: We want it to give way to further dialogue, to put solutions on the table and to overcome the formula that has been used for twenty years and that is not useful for everyone.