When did he begin to become aware of the importance of the asbestos issue?

When I started reading something in 1981, I was told that asbestos only existed in the uralite industry and in the shipyards. And in 1990, Orbegozo still left white at Hernani fixing the brake shoes. In 1997 we took the first trial from CCOO. He was a mechanic at the Vitoria-Gasteiz Modern Garage, Santiago Busto, father of the current attorney at the Asbestos Victims Association, who died of peritoneal mesothelioma. By then there was a lot of documentation, but the curious -- the Jew and Osalan said that in the Modern Garage there was no asbestos. How not? They had been wind-wiping out the asbestos from the brakes for 40 years! That was the beginning. During those years I dreamed that I was going through the bridge of Orbegozo, sick myself as well.

You can also get sick... How does it influence your struggle?

That dream ... Last week we had a trial of one of those I worked with, we are awaiting the judgment. When I win a lawsuit, I feel a joy and a disgust. When I assumed high-level responsibilities in the union, I remember that a member of the Osalan council told me about 2001: “Jexux, you’re creating a social alarm,” and I: “People don’t get sick with me, they come sick.” Things look very different when you've eaten asbestos, it's a personal struggle.

The beginnings would have been hard ...

I had a lot of discussions with people, and after a few years I realized that it's not worth it, that we have to put the dead and the sick on the table. When you lost your health, you used to say that “God would want...” and now it’s “bad luck.” But look -- among those who have cancer, I start thinking badly and correctly.

Do you feel more support in the surroundings?

I've noticed a change in journalists. Denouncing constantly has shown that we are facing a serious problem. I am now missing the young people, because they find asbestos remote.

Nor is the labour market situation the same as 40 years ago.

Today I put on Facebook a post on deafness: one person has charged me EUR 2,400 for deafness. But how many are the people who lose hearing from the noise of work? Maybe 100,000? Occupational diseases are more than ever and are being concealed: when there is an accident concentrations are made, but every day there are deaths from occupational diseases and we cannot stand by trade unionism.

Is it a structural problem?

The problem is, we're going back. In the 1960s, not only was there a cultural revolution, but also in the world of work: “I live like a robot,” he said, and that was wanted to change. But that thought dissipates. What does the worker say today? “On Monday to work, uf!..”, but what little we do to enjoy at work, and it is possible to give it a sense and to be comfortable, it is not just a matter of money.

You created the Basque association of asbestos victims Asviamie. What objectives does it have?

Asviamie was founded by a friend of Laudio, a victim of asbestosis, to gain recognition of his father’s professional illness. I knew several people in Bizkaia who were contaminated by asbestos and helped them activate it. For what purpose? Recognition of victims, mutual support and creation of the Compensation Fund.

They often turn to the courts. What are the results?

I would say that they are very good, in general, it is me and the attitude of some judges is unacceptable; I would highlight Ricardo Bandrés of San Sebastian. Almost every week we have a trial in Donostia, in Bilbao... But many times companies resort and the causes linger.

They claim that the victims of asbestos are a double victim.

One example: One of those who were in Xey de Zumaia died of asbestos, went to claim compensation and finally we ended up in the Supreme Court. After three or four years, the amount to be paid was 180,000 euros. Xey's management came to cry saying they didn't have money and they went to the creditor competition. We reached an agreement to pay, but after a year he went bankrupt. There was an operation on the part of the company.

Nobody can say that they are calling into question the economy of companies with the complaints.

With asbestos, you're also wobbling or going to the hole, and that's not what you're talking about. Of course it is called into question, and in some cases we negotiate, but because they come further behind. If you don't ask for compensation after the pain, prevention can be expensive, but if you have to pay it is cheap. We are such an animal. They told me: “Hear Jexux, give them away, they’ve died or they’re sick and they don’t vote anymore.” Miserable! They've taught you where you'll end up.

You tell him that Osalan and Social Security don't have all the illnesses. Why?

The Spanish Ministry of Health estimates that in 2017 34 people died in the state from asbestos cancer and 53 from asbestosis in the same country. Lie, they've been through our hands more ... On the one hand, those recognized by Social Security do not appear in the statistics. On the other hand, the doctors in Osakidetza are obliged to take part in cases of suspicion, but most of them pass by. Osakidetza costs around EUR 50,000 a cancer, but that should be managed by mutual societies.

But why?

Revolving doors. Where is Darpon? [Jon, Health Advisor to the Basque Government] Where did he come from and where did he go? Business group IMQ. There's a whole project to question the public and let people go private. And you will see what will come with the new law of mutual societies... There are cuts for lack of money, but Osakidetza has the hole there.

However, steps are being taken from the public sector, there is the compensation fund. What will it bring? Who will be the beneficiary?

Bring? It's yet to be seen. Pp has abstained from the Congress of Deputies, but he is in government and has paralysed all the House’s proceedings. But the benefit is obvious: as I worked in Orbegozo, in the end the Ministry of Industry would pay mine. But think of a small smelter that's gone..., Who would you ask? It is not possible. In such cases, the fund would help. Or think a family member misses about cleaning the mailbox...

It would then help the most vulnerable sectors and those who have been on the shore.

That's it. Paco Puche and his relatives are critical of the fund, since in the Spanish State there were only Uralita, Renfe or shipyards and there is who to come. But here in the Basque Country, how many garages or workshops have you worked with asbestos? What about women? You can ask the company for more by going to court, but minimum compensation must be guaranteed.

When it comes to compensation, shouldn't we remember the suffering and dependence caused by cancer?

Not only that: companies didn't comply with the law. Some say that until 1984 there was no state asbestos law, but in 1940 there was already talk of health surveillance in the place where there was asbestos dust; then the rule of not bringing the divers home, had to be cleaned, a 1950 law said that children under 18 could not work with asbestos... They knew it! The companies did not comply with the law and sentenced them to death.

They saw it well in the Turin trial, which they knew.

Our goal is not to enrich widows. When you get hit by a car, you get compensations, it's the same approach. People on the list of those who have been through asbestos are afraid when they start coughing and coughing. Some people don't want to read news in the newspapers.

Have we not yet taken the real measure of the problem? Would you use the word genocide?

No doubt.

When we say cancer increases, do we relate it to asbestos?

Mesothelioma has the advantage that it can only be produced with asbestos. Then lung cancer was recognized, we are now talking about the ademocarcinoma, also of the larynx and esophagus, and in some cases in Germany ovarian cancer has also been recognized. But we're dealing with asbestos and many other carcinogens. We have to take them.

The problem is always: chancerers, workshops, incinerators, everything is but it is nothing.

In 1890, a 35-year-old worker came to the panting doctor and coughing. And he says, I'm the last of the workshop, everyone else has left. The well-known doctor begins to investigate and realizes that it's because of asbestos. That’s why you need a collective approach from the workers, because if you have arm pain, it’s your arm pain, but if all your peers have the same pain… With cancer you can do the same.

The list of people who worked with asbestos in Osakidetza contains 8,500 people, although it is estimated that they could reach 25,000 people. How is it managed?

Every day, I walk into one. If you've worked with asbestos, I tell you to bring "work life" and take it to Osalan. This is like a police lockdown. The disease occurs 30, 40 or 50 years later, companies have disappeared, the production processes have changed… how to prove it? That role has great value, it is the first step, and if there is not, I will not rest until 25,000 have entered.

Asbestos was widely used and is still present. Is it not a risk from the past?

I told a lot of journalists, I put a secret camera and we're going to buy asbestos. The European Economic and Social Council (ESC) has adopted the Decree on the "radicalisation" of asbestos. Where is all that that brought here an enormous amount? In the Altza landfill, in the Ribera de Hernani... For example, the struggle of the resident association of Altza: some have managed to register for playing in the park next to the school. People are spinning.

What do you think of de-amication procedures?

The Basque Parliament has twice approved the establishment of the inventory, on my proposal. Radicalisation is something else – budget has now been put in place in Poland – but the inventory ... No one has done so, with the exception of some municipalities. The progress is very slow and there is a lot of asbestos, there it goes.