Joxemari, last year, wrote two significant articles about the Ribera. One of them had the following title: “What will we do with our Ager Vasconum?” The question is for you.

JOSEMARI ESPARZA Throughout history, the Basque taste moves away from the Ribera and the triumph of the right. Federal Republicanism, the explosion of the Gamazada, the Basque Statute, the Popular Front, the fight against Franco, or the anti-nuclear movement, were made from the perspective of being part of a larger political reality: Basque Country, Basque Country, Basque Country, Basque Country.

So what do you do? Accept the Ribera as it is and leave a comfortable place in the Basque Country Herria that we have in mind, with its tradition and its navarurity. And that's what we need to help from the rest of the country. Let your romance be heard in our political forums, in San Sebastian or in Pamplona without anyone saying what they have to put on the walls. We should think with humility that the dustbin would return to the broad candidatures of citizens who, in their turn, as happened in 1979.

I have a very different starting point. We have to accept the Bank as it is. The passages of history are very interesting, but we are today and we are the way we are. In the Ribera we have several identities: one, which is deeply Navarre, and of it, some have a second shared identity, which can be Baskista or Abertzale; and others, the majority, Spanish.

If this is not accepted, basquism is slowed down, regressed or marginalised. Today, Left-Ezkerra holds the mayor of Tudela, with PSN and Tudela Can. Why? Because left-wing citizens see us as social benchmarks, but also because we have tried to find a meeting point between identities. I have always taken my position as a councillor in Spanish and Basque, and I have heard many whistles for that, but nationalism did not seem enough either.

Miracles, how do you distinguish between basquism and patriotism?

M.R. Baskism is a sense of participation in Basque and Basque culture, which fosters the recognition and knowledge that they have not had here. Nationalism goes further and claims unity with the rest of the Basque territories, independence… Nationalism means being a Basque nationalist, and I am not a nationalist. The main identity in the Ribera is the Navarre, and the Basque culture has to accept it and then move forward at the pace that it can, but always starting from the reality there, without rushing too soon.

J.E. But what are the leftist, the revolutionaries for? To change realities. We must not forget that the Bank has been completely colonized if the Popular Front had probably won the four territories of the South with the same Statute of Autonomy. Yes, the Ribera is the way it is, but I want it to change.

M.R. As for identity, I do not want to change La Ribera, I can do my bit to ensure that the Basque culture also has its place here. But let's not take steps that no one can feel like an attack, because if we're not going to land on us. Nationalism has acted very radically with independence, with ETA’s armed struggle, and that has been key for UPN to continue to rule over the past 20 years.

J.E. From his identity, of course, but from the time of the conquest to the Popular Front of 1936, when identity and foralist issues have been addressed in the Ribera and its peoples, he has been related to Vasconia. That is why Spanish nabarrism is the worst defender of the forces and customs in Navarre. This Navarrismo has no history in Navarre, as the most representative intellectuals and writers of Navarre, also in the Ribera, have always recognized its connection with the other Basque territories: Inside or next to the Basque Country. All this has fallen for political interests, for repression, for media control, for persecution of everything that smelled Basque.

And what can be done to change this situation?

J. R. We must develop a general culture, a political culture and a political culture of the country. And not only to recover the past, but to have a better and more progressive future with the rest of the country.

M.R. The past is there, but reality is what it lives today. The most obvious mistakes have been made in recent decades and have come from nationalism, it has not been possible to respect the different identities that exist here. In addition, there is ETA’s activity. And all of this has turned a lot of people who were not Baskist into opposed to Baskism. We have to begin to overcome this contradiction and only from respect to their identity will we gain their respect.

How has ETA’s action influenced everything we are talking about?

M.R. UPN has sold here to ETA, the Basque Country, the Basque Country, independence and everything else as one, and in that ETA has helped him a lot. These 800 killed by ETA have significantly impeded cooperation between the left beyond the SNP, which has had a significant impact on the development of basquism. But, although we are not dealing with that here, I want to make it clear that my biggest rejection of ETA is ethical.

J.E. The biggest mistake of nationalism has been centralism, first from Bizkaia, after Gipuzkoa and today from Pamplona. Ager Vasconum is far from Nationalism – from the PNV and Geroa Bai to Sortu. The Ribera is not for the political and liberated directorates, unless they approach the elections and ask for a vote. If all this does not change, the left, the Abertzales and the future of Navarre will have many problems in the future.

ETA will have its responsibility, but the way in which the PNV and the Abertzale left have understood this territory is far more influential. In addition, it should be made clear that we do not all have the freedom of Milagros Rubio to talk about the issue. I don't have it, I have it on the sword of Damocles. A man has recently been sentenced to one year in prison for criticising Carrero Blanco, who has been arrested.

M.R. With its 800 deaths, here for many years ETA has been the sword of Damocles…

J.E. ... 800 deaths? This language has emerged from the Spanish intelligence services. On the one hand, they must be divided between different institutions and, on the other hand, many people who today are in command posts and offices as democrats have responsibilities in them. ETA cannot be understood without Franco and its repression.

M.R. With all the mistakes you want, but we are in a democracy. In recent years ETA has murdered what was different from her. Here, by my side I have had the socialist councillors threatened, and their only crime was to come to town hall to work for the front...

J.E. Am I going to tell you about the suffering I have seen around me, the tortured…? This is the classic theme on the left. The issue of violence is summed up in this way, starting with the first person who has sought freedom: it is not violence yes or no, but politics and ethics. Chomsky said that the violence of the oppressed is called terrorism and that of the oppressor is called war.

And then came the Navarra spring of 2015. What happened?

J.E. These are factors such as the boredom of the old regime, the post-ETA era and the appearance of citizen unions. The latter are sometimes structured around EH Bildu, sometimes around the candidacies of citizenship and some of them around Ezker Batua-Batzarre. The candidacies of citizenship are a good way forward.

M.R. I basically agree. I would like to point out, however, that the Ribera has had a different colour in the results compared to the rest of Navarre. I say let us not be wrong, let us not homogenize it and let us not think here that this spring has been like the whole of Navarre. Above all, the non-Basque positions on the left of the SNP have been laid down here.

Where are the keys to deepening change and perpetuating the current government?

M.R. The Government of Navarre has to internalise – Uxue Barkos said – that Baskism is not the majority in Navarre and therefore has to govern for those who are not Baskists or Baskists. And this is not being very clear.

What do you base yourself on to say it?

M.R. Because the first measures we have taken are basquist. If the first monographic plenary in Parliament is to discuss the right to decide … Gestures are very important. In recent days, however, social measures are also being taken, such as the processing of the right to abortion through the public network. The Government must balance the care of identities and the development of the social framework.

J.E. I would use classical expression: patience for what cannot yet be changed, courage to change what can be changed, and wisdom to know how to differentiate between the two above. It is to be welcomed the attitude shown by EH Bildu, she is not in government and if we look at her electoral strength, she is the one that harms the most in this sense. However, we have to do everything we can to support this or similar government for fifteen years, for at least that time will be the one that will take time to get rid of the layer of dirt left by right-wing Navarrism in Navarre. We have a lot of consensus, a strong program, and the alternative we know what it is.

M.R. It is important to strengthen the alliance between the nationalist left and the non-nationalist left, which are in the government. To this end, we need shared leadership – I agree, Geroa Bai has held too much office – and that social and trade union movements should move in the same direction. The latter does not happen today, and we are weak on that. Furthermore, I believe that the Abertzale left should deepen the self-critical view of the past with regard to ETA.

J.E. Of concern is the degree of authoritarianism and the effort to capture the image that Uxue Barkos is showing within the Government, more shared leadership would be needed. And on self-criticism, I say: it's the excuse that some people use. Political blackmail in this false democracy. One day we will be able to talk about ETA and others. And everyone gives their deserved.