In Euskaltegis, the number of students is steadily decreasing. In the Basque Autonomous Community, in the 1986-1987 academic year, the number of students was 45,974 and in the 2011-2012 academic year was 35,132. Has the time come?

Mertxe moved: I don't think so. Looking at data from the last fifteen years, it is true that 10,000 fewer students have approached the Euskaltegis. On more than one occasion we have been told that literacy in the Euskaldunisation of adults has reached its peak, so we should put an end to our will. All of us here are born to close our doors. Anyway, if we look at other data, I think we haven't gotten anywhere. The proportion of Castilian speakers, always linked to the CAV, is around 50%. This people has said time and time again that they want to live in Basque. If something has touched above, it has not been alphabetizing the Euskaldunization of adults.

Over 45,000? I do not dare to say whether there will be more than that, but it has touched up. In recent years it has been language policy that has gone down, with more daring language policies, etc., there are all the variables to grow again.

Joserra Olano: This figure, as shown in the ranking, seems to have been a constant decrease and that has not been the case. In the 94-95 and 95-96 courses we were at the same time as those 45,000 students and in Navarra we came to have almost 6,000 students.

Here we look at the number of students, and it would be an interesting fact, if we wanted to measure the impact of the activity on society, to know the weight we have in class hours. In Navarre we do not have concrete data, but we have the feeling that the modules are going down, the pace of the courses is going down, rather than being compacted, to reduce them.

I fully agree with what Mertxe said. If it has arrived or not, I will not enter. It is clear to me that our activity is framed in certain language policies. Here [in the CAV], the setbacks that have occurred in recent years have undoubtedly influenced. Much less has been done than could be done and can be done in this sector. If the political will had been different, the size of adult Euskaldunization would have been different. Touch it up… On this occasion we would play down. In Navarre we say so, that we have touched down and now we have to go up.

Pedro Lonbide: Something has reached its peak. I don't think there's a number of students, but systems. We have brought to a halt the system that regulates and moves adult Euskaldunization literacy and we have lengthened it too long. Society has changed, the needs and desires of the students as well, and we are with the same parameter as 30 years ago. That is what has touched up and that is what needs to be changed, call language policy, as we want to call it.

As far as the number of students is concerned, I do not think we can go beyond that. We have to limit it, 30,000 or 35,000. But we are not going to get to the amounts of yesteryear, because half is Euskaldunized or has approached the Basque.

Looking at the new language system or policy, I wonder what we want to achieve with the other half we have left. So far we have not attracted them or have not felt the need to come. I do not know if what has to be the objective also has to be Euskaldunizar or if something has to be proposed for them. For this we need another system.

Idoia Goñi: There is not much to say. How to attract this 50% of non-vasco-speakers. I do not know what the system has given, the Euskaltegi has offered a lot of consistency for many years [many hours per week courses]. This means a great deal of daily dedication. Pedro says that life has changed a lot. We have offered less dense modules: twice a week, on Saturdays, self-learning… But there is another factor: in recent years there has been no need for Euskera. I come back to language policy, you have not been interested in it, you have not invented it, you have not created any need for the citizen to be concerned. Many people are worried about learning languages; they learn English, they learn German, they are not cheap, but they have a prestige that has not been given to the Basque country. In recent years there has been a sharp decline. That doesn't attract people to Euskaltegi.

Twenty years ago, eight to ten, we had Euskaltegi to the limit, there was activism and desire to live in Euskera. Today we know that the profile is not that, it comes with a much more finalist objective to learn Basque. The need is very high, there is a lack of prestige and it is against us.

J. Olano: We're talking about 50 percent of the students. In Navarre, this percentage is 80% of the population.

M. Musician: The Law of the Basque Country has been 30 years old, I believe that there is talk of adult Euskaldunization literacy in one line. In any process of linguistic normalization there are two fundamental pillars: education and transmission, literacy of adult Euskaldunization. If we had put in our place the resources and forces that have been put in the field of education, perhaps we would be in another place. Rights are often commented on and commented on. Here there has been a need to learn Spanish, but the right to learn Basque… I don’t know. If we go to Navarre or Iparralde, what to say. Also, have to pay... The course has not been very clear and after years we have come to the situation in which we have arrived.

Peter says the system is outdated. It will have laws that govern us -- as many years as we do. It may not respond well to current needs and we are responding to the needs of society. Language policy often needs to be done by us, and we are a party, not authors.

P. Lonbide: The school has done its work in some way and we must also demand what we have euskaldunized all these years, we have brought many people into society. Those who are left worry me more and why we can't bring them home. That is why I was referring to the system and to linguistic policy. All Euskaltegis have tried to adapt to the new situation. Mertxe said that we have sometimes made language policy. But many times we have found ourselves with closed doors, we have had problems and it is very difficult to deal with them.

Why has the number of pupils been reduced? What are your most important factors?

J. Olano: There has been a significant weakening of motivation and it is possible that my point of view is totally conditioned because I come from Navarra. However, I believe that in the last four years also in the CAPV there has been a weakening of motivation. Many times we told the Gasteiztars, “Right now they are navarros.” The speech reminded us of what our beloved Miguel Sanz used in the years 1999-2000. For example, the apology of English.

The instrumental or finalist motivation would also weaken, it seems to me that the importance of the Basque country has decreased from there [from Navarra]. I refer to the last four years.

Language learning requires effort and does not make the way easier. There is a lack of political will. A recent UPN parliamentarian told us: “It would seem very bad, as you claim, that people do not have to pay for learning Basque and that they have to pay for studying German or English,” he reminded him of how free courses are organized to learn in Spanish. It is the message that the citizen receives with this mentality…

I. Goñi: … that is not your language.

M. Musician: This course has been combined with three factors: the economic crisis means that people do not have money to pay tuition, student support has been eliminated and there is a lack of prestige in the language.

I. Goñi: More and more students say “I can’t advance the money.” He says, “The city council will subsidize you if you attend,” “yes, but now I can’t advance the money.”

M. Musician: That has been seen a lot.

P. Lonbide: It's not long ago that you said to me textually. “I now have EUR 300 and I could pay the tuition, but with that money I prefer to take an antenist course. I know I'm going to be
more profitable." Related to money, there are also language classes and we are competing in some way with them. If the tuition for the year is 70 euros, ours is 300 and more. I also see these inconsistencies in the system.

J. Olano: Here I am provoking myself from the outside, but we were also struck by the decree of exception [the students would have the certificate of Euskera for their studies in Euskera in school]. This will also influence the weight of instrumental motivation.

M. Musician: They have changed a situation by decree, without any change in reality. By decree all have been euskaldunized. I don't think they're going to change the decree.

P. Lonbide: There must be a decree of this kind. So we say: “I don’t know what oppositions I am going to and they don’t do Castilian tests, and Euskera, why do they?” The decree goes around, if you've studied in Basque, what am I going to ask for? But do the fruits of school come to that? It is very difficult for the government to say “we have made a decree but the school does not guarantee it”. That is what the Government should ensure.

M. Musician: That is why I have said that you will not withdraw the law, that you will not throw stones at yourself. But reality has not changed and has suddenly given rise to a genuine Christian revolution. On the other hand, it has not been well explained, nobody knows very well what that law is going to bring. We've had to show up in several centers.

Have you noticed it in the Basque Country?

P. Lonbide: Yes. “I’ve been free and I won’t register.”

I. Goñi: That's what has made you Euskaldun, and you don't even have to use it, because you're Euskaldun.

M. Musician: In addition, in Spanish, “then I don’t have to...” Holy Virgin!

P. Lonbide: You said earlier: in many language policies we have done ourselves, the Euskaltegis. We have very few more people, we get the students and we get all these comments. When I hear these things, I say, but does the one who should know them know? No, you don't know, and you haven't asked us.

You mentioned the system, the language policy ... What role does the Administration have in the Euskaldunization of adults? What do you have to ask for?

J. Olano: Ask for it? [To the Government of Navarra] Not to attack Euskera, not to consider Euskera as a contagious disease. This would be the first step, even if it did nothing for it. Asking for political will to boost the Basque Country seems to me a dog’s dream. The Vascuence Act dates back to 1986, it is a bad law, but if in its development there had been another will, it would have given opportunities to go ahead in due course. But this has not been the case, it was the doctor's attitude to plague: not to divulge what I have to do. The Foral Decree 2003, which regulates the use of Euskera in the Administration, is, for example, the Foral Decree for the Reduction of Use. There have been many. The practical work of Euskarabidea is to manage increasingly reduced resources provided by the Government. In the last eleven years, the Euskaltegis of public initiative in Navarre have seen three quarters of the aid they received in the Euskaldunization of adults eliminated.

If we had another administration, we would ask him for political will, for the process of Euskaldunization to be accepted, for it to be considered beneficial and for it to be disseminated. Since 1999, the language policy of the Government of Navarra has been very aggressive. The crisis is an excellent excuse, but the Euskaltegis of popular initiative have suffered the biggest cutback in 2005 and then there was no crisis.

M. Musician: We have heard time and again that Euskaltegis are strategic, and if Euskera has earned over 300,000 speakers in the last 30 years, approximately 100,000 have been due to Euskaltegis. Nice words. But we have to move from that to the facts. If you give the place corresponding to the Basque Country and also to the literacy of the Euskaldunisation of adults, that is, recognition, I ask the Administration to take the next step. How? In partnership. The VPL [Vice-Ministry of Language Policy] marks the law, but it should be with us because we are the ones who work with the students, the last in the chain.

Is cooperation with the administration now weak?

M. Musician: It has a lot to improve. It is very nice to say “you are strategic”. We will be something if every year over 35,000 students pass through our Basque Country. The figures are impressive, just like the students of Álava's Education. It's a lot! But this strategy has to be vistified, with resources, with admissions, etc.

On the other hand, language policy must be much more cross-cutting. In the normalization of the Basque Country we are working many agents, the world of work, the media … and to this end, transversal policies are needed. For example, we (I mean AEK) when we present ourselves to a competition ask us if we have a plan of equality made, of the environment… Why don’t they ask us if we have an Euskera plan? If it is transversal, the knowledge of the Basque Country is also a very important instrument for coexistence. By sending this message, we may move from words to deeds.

I would also ask you for a language policy that takes account of the whole territory, even if only taken into account. There are agreements with Navarre and Iparralde, which are those agreements for the Basque Country to move forward.

P. Lonbide: Socialize or -- I don't know what to call it. With individuals, we know what to do. There we have the government, I think it is very far away, campaigns, sets objectives, but it really does not reach the land, the citizens. On the other hand, we are trying to go up there, but I do not know how far we are. I would ask you to ensure that this closeness and the measures you really take are from top to bottom. Analyse the resources to be used to reach any citizen or citizen. For example, how to make it feel that the Basque is valid, that it will be enriching for him, that it is not mandatory to take the EGA… That work we do, the message (campaign) yes, but then there is nothing, there is no action to develop it.

Thinking of the employees of the administration, I would ask the administration to bring profitability to the thousands and thousands of workers that we have Euskaldunized. I am convinced that we have made an enormous effort, an extraordinary fortune has been used and we have not managed to achieve the multiplier effect that those results should have. They're Euskaldunized, but they're learned in Basque, dots. With what they've learned, I've already shown that they've learned it, and it's almost always over.

I. Goñi: Let's go to the usual, it's a matter of will. Because you feel Euskaldun, because someone in the department pushes it … then we show that it is used. But Euskaltegis doesn't know how far the lessons are being used. This measurement is very important and should be done.

P. Lonbide: Very important.

I. Goñi: A great deal of money has been spent in the Community at the expense of all citizens.

P. Lonbide: A lot. I would venture to say that the money has been thrown out. On the other hand, the cross-section line is essential. It cannot be a branch of the Basque Government, and the rest neither see nor feel it. There it should be on top, saying, here's another umbrella for everyone.

M. Musician: As far as prestige is concerned, the leader of Parliament is Basque. The means are put in place for the table to work in Basque… It is an incentive for prestige. Anyway, that becomes news in Post!

I. Goñi: So far it has not been standard practice.

P. Lonbide: The standardisation law is 30 years old!

M. Musician: It's not money, because they tell you, "now they also ask you for money," and it's not that. Other indirect measures often have a greater effect than money.

J. Olano: It is also up to the Administration to set an example in language practices.

M. Musician: That is the word, the example.

J. Olano: But they're not. In Navarre we tell them, we make a gesture, start studying parliamentarians and parliamentarians in Basque, that is the way to work motivation, give prestige to the language. They will not, but they too are clear on the way.

I. Goñi: It seems incredible to the citizen that a politician should express his will to learn. It may take years to speak in Basque unduly on television. It's a very nice gesture, but you've been trying for five years. I do not know where the priorities are...

J. Olano: I would ask the Administration to be able to give the service in Basque to the citizen. It seems to me the best way to work motivation.

I. Goñi: What the administration needs to be asked for must go in two ways. On the one hand, Euskera’s learning campaigns should be encouraged among the population (e.g. direct grants to students for higher education). On the other hand, more sustainable subsidies are available to strengthen the sector, which would enable us to develop the projects and programmes that are appropriate for the future. That does not mean that we do not, but the economic situation also affects us, of course.

What are or can be new market sectors?

I. Goñi: The new sector, the new market … I think I understood the question, but, in line with what Joxerra said, if the citizen does not have the right to receive all the services in Basque, I do not know what new market we have to investigate. If we had the basic full.

There are a lot of people out there, with no hours to do.

P. Lonbide: Talking about new markets and the unemployed, for example, seems to me to be a big step backwards. It is not a question, “since we have to euskaldunize someone we will take the retirees, then …”. At one time we did, we called them administrative personnel, Ertzaintza, Osakidetza, justice, collectives, and on one occasion we were told, “the collectives are over”. Rather than markets or sectors, I would mention new functions. So far we have had a task, now why would we need language policies? For example, young people are going to be graduated by decree, but do we have nothing to offer them? We have it.

M. Musician: There are still many who have to learn Basque, and there is another bag that they have to improve. In this sense we will have to work together with education, they come from some centers. Usage issues must also be dealt with jointly, which is slightly beyond our scope. On the other hand, the world of work must be euskaldunized, there too we have another kind of market, and there we are too. There is the ESEP [Plan of Action for the Promotion of the Basque Country of the VPL] and we will put measurable objectives. I'm going to go, work together, we're really stuck. They've pushed us a lot to get everyone moving their way.

J. Olano: The field is impressive, if you see a large field here, let's say nothing in Navarre. One in four young people currently studies in model D. Think about the machine of creating Castilian monolinguals.

P. Lonbide: The European framework does not distinguish between pupils and users. Defines a user as a speaker who is learning any language, either from one level or another. We should stop distinguishing between studying and using and implementing usage plans at all levels. I think it's the user's key, because in the end we want to do it, not just learn, learn and learn, but actually use it.

You have given a starting point for the next question, Pedro. How will Euskaltegis combine knowledge with use? What strength should they exert in knowledge and in what use?

J. Olano: Mertxe said that “it is not for us alone to work the use”. Does use -- and motivation also matter to us?

M. Musician: We do it, huh!

J. Olano: In Navarre we have been told on more than one occasion, “the campaign that you
are doing would have to be done by the government.” Yes! There's a lot of talk about use, and it's certainly very important, but you don't have to dazzle it either. With the knowledge rate we have, the utilization rate is not low. Linguistic fidelity is quite great. Arantzazu’s friar comes to mind: the patron offered him a dinner, “what do you want, a pair of eggs or a cookie?”; “housewife, why not?” The two… and the third is also there and I think it is not given enough importance. I mean motivation, motivation to learn and use. That is what no one invents, neither we nor the others.

M. Musician: Since our origins, we have been on the road for knowledge and use to go together. All Euskaltegis are working on it, the methodologies are oriented towards it, they are so complementary. In our organization, we have it in DNA.

P. Lonbide. But although this is the approach many times, we have not succeeded.

M. Musician: As we have not succeeded, we have all started to do other kinds of activities and programmes. For the benefit of the students: they pay a fortune, spend several years, return to the Castilian speaking area and have to return to the Basque Country. From there were the Berbalagun words and other things like that.

I. Goñi: Many people will tell you (I am speaking in Gipuzkoa), “I can only use the Basque here [in the Basque Country], my environment is not Basque”. You can change your habits to make your activities Euskaldunes. From there emerged Bagera [the Mintzalagun project organized by the Association of the Basque Country of Donostia]. We know some students who, through this initiative, will be directed to Euskaldunes. If not, it will tell you: “I don’t know where to use Euskera.”

Euskaltegis offers students the possibility of approaching Euskaldunes. Is that what you have to do?

I. Goñi: We're the portal. It is our job, and of course we do.

J. Olano: That is also our job.

P. Lonbide: I think so. What I do not know is whether to demand and can demand such a great effort from the student: “Change your most basic habits.” It needs to be provided with tools.

I. Goñi: You won't force anyone to go to the bullets site.

P. Lonbide: Many may say, “I don’t know them in any way!” We have to tell him without things changing too much: here, near you, you have these things, take advantage of it. If you are going to buy you have the option to read this newspaper, this one on the internet, if you do gardening...

J. Olano: That's what we call a student hobby. Take advantage of its possibilities. And I have no doubt that we are the portal. We put the key in your hands…

P. Lonbide: …and we take them by the hand.

You assert that life has changed and that the students barely take intensive courses of yesteryear. What direction should the teaching molds take?

M. Musician: I still think consistency is the way, but in the current situation we must combine our desires with the wishes of the client.

I. Goñi: Although it is known that the learning process is prolonged.

P. Lonbide: It lengthens because we put a limit on it. The lifting limits must be demystified. You will be a user of the Basque from the first day and you will use it according to your abilities. We have no limits, calm, so you can also learn Basque, and so you can also use it. Because if you ask him that, working two hours a week, he's going to take eight years to learn, I would say, "I'll leave him." The message must be different.

M. Musician: We give such a message.

P. Lonbide: But the administration doesn’t know to what extent… we hear the “Arinaiztarras” and things like that.

M. Musician: It's also passive bilingual. The question is what speech is at the head of everyone and all. However, what I am clear is that the learning process needs to be smoothed (I do not know what the word we have to use).

P. Lonbide: Soften, facilitate, disseminate…

M. Musician: The student has a wide range, and sometimes does not know it until he reaches the Basque Country. We must always act in a positive sense, for the effort they make is brutal. If you tell him that he needs eight years to learn…

P. Lonbide: I don't come.

I. Goñi: If you want EGA and two hours a week ago, you will be told that it takes eight years. But yes, teaching depends on the goals of oneself.

J. Olano: Now, however, we have exceptional conditions for the provision of intensive courses for unemployment.