What kind of teachers do we need? What profile should the current and future teacher have and what role should they play?

Irene López: We have to imagine the society we want and we will prepare the right teachers for each parameter. What kind of society do we want? There's bleeding. The sociologist Manuel Castells speaks of a par society: on the one hand, he says that we are moving towards a more uniform and global society (there are fewer and fewer differences between one school here and another in Germany, for example), and on the other, that there is a tension to diversify, to reclaim and promote its characteristics. When deciding what kind of teachers we want to train, we will have to take these two trends into account.

Mariam Bilbatua: What society we want, and I would add, what society we have. We are training 21st century teachers and I see two lines: on the one hand, the teacher has to respond to the peculiarities of society, and the teaching staff will find in the classroom enormous diversity, social, cultural and ethnic plurality. On the other hand, they will focus on the information society, with the capacity for access and treatment of information being very important, and being able to help it achieve and treat it. On the other hand, in school we will educate in part the people who are going to develop a better or worse society and it is very important to take that responsibility into account. In Euskal Herria, we also have another challenge: the transmission of our culture and our language. The teacher has a very important role in it, and in its formation we have to take care of it and work it.

Abel Ariznabarreta: In the Schools of Magisterium we often highlight the technical or professional aspects of teaching in abstract, but as has been said, we must take into account the society in which it has touched us to work and what that society will demand from the school. The current teacher acts as an educator, tutor and manager, for which we have to prepare, but without forgetting the social function that Mariam has mentioned, to ensure cultural transmission. In traditional society it has been other social actors who have had the responsibility to guarantee it (e.g. families), but a cut has been made in our generation and society tells the school: “You have something to say in that,” not only us, but we have to do what we owe, and for that we have to prepare future generations of teachers.

What are the requirements or bases that are currently defined in teacher training and what deficiencies do you observe?

I. López: When the plan for Bologna was made, we approached the different universities in many things. We speak of the teaching typology that was proposed from different areas and countries, based on competencies (from the pedagogical point of view we prefer to use the word “competence”, rather than the word “competence” that has been translated into Basque, as the latter is more related to psychology, is more abstract). The profile of teachers is a subject that has been very much studied in European universities. We, after an extensive analysis of research, consider that one of the most interesting proposals is that made by a group of Dutch teachers (for Primary and Compulsory Secondary), which takes into account all areas: the professional who is going to work with people has to develop an interpersonal and pedagogical space, especially related to mentoring; has to master teaching methodologies; has to be expert in their themes; and has to know how to organize and manage in the classroom. All this, with the students, with the other teachers and parents and with oneself.

M. Bilbatua: We talk about an integral profile. We believe that we have to train as people and work on the competencies they have to have in this sense, in order to be able to relate with parents, in order to achieve good communication with students... We also see the need to develop competencies as members of society: commitment to society, relationships... We cannot think that the school is a closed space, we are increasingly talking about education for the whole life and the educational community; the work of teachers is important. As Irene mentioned, vocational training is also necessary, they have to govern concrete tools to invigorate their activities, design them, etc.

On the other hand, I would like to underline the way I form myself: we want to reinforce the image of the reflective teacher. Reviewing the experience of our years, the model we have followed has been to move from theory to practice, and we have realized that this often generates tremendous frustration, because teachers see that they are not able to implement what they have learned in theory, but they do not have the opportunity to reflect on what has happened to them in practice. The key is not so much in which areas and in which areas we want to train teachers, but in which profile of teachers we want them to be able to walk in areas they do not know, for which it is important to develop the capacity for reflection, to reflect on the difficulties they encounter and their solutions.

A. Ariznabarreta: Yes, and in order to develop this practice, it is necessary that we ourselves, the teachers of the Schools of Magisterium, consider in this way our teaching work, since through practice the models and values are transmitted. In addition, the rethinking of the traineeship has been important and some are already seeing the results. As for the bases to be incorporated by the aspirants, the knowledge and techniques are necessary, but also the methodological and pedagogical ones, and what is important, the ability to work in teams, collaboration and relationship, not only with the rest of the teachers, but with the entire educational community, with other educational agents of the environment and especially with the parents, because ultimately, their professional activity will be carried out in teams. We must also work on personal competences, of course, and finally essential: the mastery of linguistic competences from the School of Magisterium. We have not yet managed to get everyone to leave competent in Basque, and I am afraid of the latest decisions taken by the Basque Government: to recognize the degree to exercise teaching to all the people who have followed the teaching process in Basque, without having to carry out any proof of accreditation. That's very dangerous. In fact, nowadays, when a teacher is recognized as the ability to teach in Basque, he is recognized as a basic competence of which a very high percentage does not progress, for various sociological reasons, but the truth is that with this tool an important educational function is being developed, and I at least know that the linguistic model that we are transmitting through regulated teaching is very poor in relation to the Basque language. And the level of language the teacher has influences not only the linguistic competence of the students, but also their academic achievement and integral development. After all, it is a chain.

What measures should be put in place in the Teaching Schools to tackle this problem and ensure linguistic competence?

M. Bilbatua: In our case, what I see is that there is a great diversity among teachers: some have a high level of Euskera and others quite low, and that creates difficulties, because in theory everyone has to achieve the same level. In my opinion, the only way is to make personal tours. At the same time, there is a need to deepen the methodologies and use of language teaching. The latest sociolinguistic data show that we have advanced in the competencies but not in the use, and the function of the faculty is to motivate the students. In addition to teaching language, it is up to you to stimulate your mind and encourage its use, to make sense. Although the sociolinguistic situation influences, the exercises and activities proposed in the schools do not encourage communication; we have used the students to answer concrete questions, to write little… We will hardly develop a great linguistic competence with this type of methodologies.

I. López: I would like to stress that teachers have made a great effort in developing language skills in schools and in continuing education. We cannot forget this, and furthermore our teachers have had exemplary training in this field, but it is not an individual field, social factors have an extraordinary impact. I have been a professor at the School of Teaching for nineteen years, and the aspirants have changed a lot, the tendency to Spanish is evident. In the society in which we live, if not many measures are taken (including administrative measures), I see that it is difficult to change the situation.

M. Bilbatua: I agree, the effort that has been made is great, but, in general, there is still much to be done, and when we talk about that with those who want to be teachers, we realise that, for example, they have large gaps in Basque culture. “Have you not learned this?” he replied. “Yes, but we learned for the test, and then we forgot it.” That is why it is important to motivate academically and promote deep learning so that teachers integrate this knowledge. I do not think it is the best school model we have to ensure cultural transmission or to develop language skills.

Does this influence the importance that the current educational system places on English?

A. Ariznabarreta: The last decision taken by the government two years ago, the approach to the trilingual framework, has positive features, but it also risks that not only will less time be devoted to the Basque country (as Mariam says it is more important than the time worked in that time), but also that such an approach cannot be generalised at once and less by means of decrees. The evaluation of experience has not yet been carried out, but on the basis of the evaluation of an experience of this kind, it seems to me dangerous to generalise next year to the whole of the education system. Moreover, generalisation requires that there be resources that do not exist at the moment, such as the generalisation of the appropriate level of competition in English.

You mentioned the importance of motivation, Mariam. How do you teach a teacher how to motivate the student? How to disassemble roles like “good student” and “bad student”?

M. Bilbatua: On the one hand, we have to be aware that depending on where we motivate the students, we will have different results. That is, if we motivate the results, they're not very motivated, they're just going to get good results, and if they don't get good results, maybe we're going to generate negative attitudes towards learning. But if we really motivate students to learn, to know, to make sense of what they have learned… How do you do that? Not only by saying, as Abel said, but also by doing, in the Schools of Magisterium we have to be an example of this. It's about changing the content and the methodology, thinking about what we do and the results of what we do.

In line with the roles of “good” and “bad” students, it is fundamental to analyze our discourses, how we express expectations, what we expect from the students, and we must be aware of all this. It is related to motivation or learning: in order to be motivated, you need self-esteem, you need to know the way; in addition to learning, you need to reflect on the learning process, what you do well and what you do wrong, where and how you can improve the process… All of these things we have to turn into content. I believe that in our schools conceptual content has been prioritized and little work is done on other types of content, those related to reflection, metacognitive.

I. López: The topic of motivation is the stone of philosophers, it would be wonderful for teachers and also for us. The only motivation that persists is the one that leaves the interior, not the one that is established on the outside by the teacher or whatever at a given moment. Boys and girls are really motivated when their interest is taken into account, but we continue to drive motivation from the outside and not from the inside. It is not easy to achieve and each one can have different mechanisms to find this motivation, but what is clear is that the student who is considered bad will not have any motivation to learn. Therefore, it is very important that the teachers know to what extent we influence, because the professors make an expectation that is often fulfilled with the students that we consider good and bad. It seems magic, but it is proven that if the teacher has good expectations towards the student, they will be fulfilled, as well as bad expectations.

A. Ariznabarreta: Successful educational systems take this aspect very seriously, ensuring the success of each and every student, and there is success in the expectation you place in each. Putting high expectations requires immediate, group and individualized follow-up, and a coherent approach to evaluation: it is not coherent to raise expectations associated with the process, to self-esteem, etc., and then evaluate only conceptual aspects, because this implies frustration. We have to raise the barrier of expectations and reduce the distance, not only the “good” ones, but we all move forward.

M. Bilbatua: Making sense is important. In school, we often do things because the teacher asks, and it's essential to know why they're done, to make sense of what they've learned, to see what's good for me. It's fundamental to stimulate the mind and make the effort.

How to educate the teacher in the values that are transmitted to the students in relation to the training of teachers for the current society?

A. Ariznabarreta: It is about having clear the values that must be transmitted and incorporated into the curriculum, but, above all, once again, the key is in a position to work them out. The teaching of values is not done by saying, but by making oneself a model. One begins to be a professor when he starts teaching in the center, but not suddenly, he will continue in the formation process and in addition to the model collected in the School of Teaching, it will be important that they internalize the values, the bases and the culture that they have in the center. If its socialization develops in this center, it will appropriate its values.

M. Bilbatua: Behind all of our behavior are values. Society has its values and we reflect them consciously or unconsciously in the decisions made. Well, it's important to be aware of it and make it conscious. On the other hand, any educational project has its signs of identity and values and it is important that it be consistent with the values we mention and with the activities we develop. If we want to promote solidarity at school, but if the initiatives launched or the way to learn are very individualistic and we do not promote cooperation… Reflection and coherence are necessary because values are internalized more than through speeches.

I. López: We call occult résumé to that transmission that's not explicit and is of great importance, but it's true that it's not a special way and that we don't have a code of ethics. For example, Maite Desco pointed out that it would be necessary, as doctors do, for teachers to take a Hippocratic oath, signing for a fairer society, for the right to learning for all students and for other fundamental commitments.

Today, lifelong learning is called for. Should it be regulated or left in the hands of oneself?

I. López: The teaching staff of Euskal Herria is very clear that continuing education is compulsory and work is being done on it. The teacher has been asked to know what a Site is, how Dropbox is used, or how to arrange digital photos.

A. Ariznabarreta: Yes, but from an institutional point of view it is necessary to create a new framework. The model we have in administrative education is that of the 1980s, a very classic and transmission scheme. It is true that later, within the evaluation and improvement projects, the formations carried out in the center itself have been promoted, but in a very superficial way. In some cases it is the centres themselves that have committed themselves to improving and training for this purpose, but it is necessary to redefine the general framework within the framework of the continuous training of teachers. The curriculum has changed radically, we have a competency-based curriculum, and that's not going to class saying and counting, but putting in place processes of implantation and real formation related. Within this, we have to take into account the assessment of competences, because it is not enough to rename and put “competences” where we used to set “objectives”, should we continue to evaluate as before? Also in the use of ICT (Information and Communication Technologies), although much progress has been made, the use of infrastructure and training for its use has been promoted, but much less the didactic use, i.e. the integration of the use of ICT in normal practice. Finally, there is a need to articulate real pedagogical and institutional leadership in the institutional framework of training for the management of the centres (and in this connection, to opt for greater autonomy of the centres). Although legally recognized, in practice the autonomy framework left to the centres is very limited, especially in the public centre.

M. Bilbatua: Yes, on many occasions the training programs have been very focused on bringing institutional policies to school, it is a vertical, vertical, top-down model, and the autonomy of the center and the teacher has not been guaranteed. Bottom-up processes are very important, taking the idea of learning to learn before. In the process from the bottom to the top, we ourselves identify what are the deficiencies and needs we have, and that is why autonomy, the possibility of deciding and reflecting is important.

A. Ariznabarreta: Indeed, it is good that the administration sets the priority lines, detects the needs and organizes the corresponding training, and at the same time we have to pick up the ones from the bottom up, but we have to be careful with those from the bottom up, we cannot respond only to the needs the professor feels, because this has often contributed to maintaining the previous traditional styles. It is important to start from there and move forward, and on that road the Berritzegunes should be a useful tool. However, the Berritzegunes are almost becoming a conduit for the needs of the Administration, partly giving up more innovative and progressive approaches, working on innovative lines, but always within the educational framework proposed by the Administration. The Berritzegunes also need more autonomy.

I. López: In Navarre, in the area I know, in the ikastolas, especially in the center, and we are happy with that, we are not waiting for what comes from the administration, and we have a lot of projects in our hands.

A. Ariznabarreta: Yes, but we make proposals and the assessment of our proposal is made on the basis of the priorities of the institutional framework, training is approved or given resources. I see the need to renew that framework.

Abel has stressed that in addition to lifelong learning, continuous evaluation by the teacher is necessary.

M. Bilbatua: As far as autonomy is concerned, self-regulation is increasingly being discussed in the field of evaluation. Self-evaluation tools are being implemented in educational centers so that students know where they are, what the indicators are, what they should improve on… and that would highlight. Everyone should know what the objectives and the way forward are, what steps to take.

I. López: I agree with the self-evaluation of students, but the question is about the evaluation of teachers and we are not used to that, we do not like it so much. In France, the Inspector usually goes to the centre and, depending on the activity inspected, influences, inter alia, the remuneration of the teacher. I myself, if someone comes to me to see what I'm doing in class, I start to feel uneasy, but we've developed teacher evaluation, we've almost evolved, and external international assessments, for example, can be reasons to change educational policies. As Mariam said, self-regulation is the basis for change, but new teacher evaluation programmes are coming to us. I don't know how we're going to show up in that picture, but I can assure you we're not going to like it. Evaluation has hardly been taken into account in both initial teacher training and further training.

A. Ariznabarreta: I understand more the evaluation of teachers as recognition of the work of the professor, against the current principle of uniformizer, because it seems that the same thing gives that it is done well or badly, has a place and fixed salary and is already there. That has to be overcome, but through a complete system, not looking at certain moments and aspects. The assessment of teachers remains a taboo subject, but I believe that measures should be taken to recognise both at work and in economic terms the practice well carried out, as is done elsewhere.

M. Bilbatua: It is true that I have talked about the evaluation of students before, but we also have to act in the same way with the teaching staff and I relate it to the figure of the aforementioned reflective teacher. We are on that path: we record our classes, we study them among us, and we ask the teachers that when they are in internship they also record the classes and analyze them with us. We call it self-confrontation, reflect on what we wanted to do and what we've done in practice. On many occasions, issues related to the professor's competencies come into play, which we must work on and take into account. To do all this, it is necessary to create spaces of respect and trust, not from negativity, there is always something we do right. In short, we relate evaluation with reflection, with improvement, not with results and scores.

A. Ariznabarreta: Imagine the challenge you will have to extend to each center what you are doing. Only that, the dissemination of this culture requires a planning and training framework and a determined commitment.

We don’t all serve as teachers, but at least the classic system, more than the one that knows how to teach, rewards the teacher who knows how to learn (who approves the test). Can we measure the meaning of the professor?

I. López: I was coordinating an Erasmus programme for a number of years in cooperation with a Dutch Teaching School, and I was particularly keen that they had a credit in the first year, which they decided among all the teachers: they jointly evaluated the teachers, who had to follow and who did not, who was the one who was worthy to be a teacher and who did not. Today in the morning, I asked my freshmen who want to be teachers, because one of the lines of this table would be if it would seem that in the first year they were told whether they are worth teaching or not. Because in our education system, there's no such thing, in other countries, they also have limited amounts, and they know that they're going to get work afterwards, they're preparing them directly for work, right here. Well, my students are quite clear that yes, I've been told that you have to tell them, that you have to tell them, if you realize that they're not good for that.

A. Ariznabarreta: We have one fact: the meaning of teachers wakes up when there is a demand… Look at the number of teachers and teachers that have been created in the last eight years in the CAPV to be educators and educators of children aged 0-3 years, because there was a commitment on the part of the administration to create children's schools and that in so many years there would be so many places. This supply has been a tremendous demand. Now, however, when there are no more places, it has been interrupted…

M. Bilbatua: Well, I don’t know very well where that instinct comes from, but I would relate it to competencies, professional and personal competencies, which also have to be in the curriculum: communicative competence, empathy with others… If you form them, they are characteristics that can be developed, rather than common sense. The awareness of being a teacher can be developed, we have a lesson to reflect on the professor's function and profile, and interesting activities can be carried out.

A. Ariznabarreta: In some places in Europe, depending on some criteria, they take 10 percent of the promotion, but when do you do that at the entrance? Are we going to measure that instinct in the introduction, or do we have to follow it up in the process and in the teacher's career to ensure that it gets there in the end? Here, once in the teaching process, the test is performed when you have a number of conditions, the oppositions, but the current system of opposition does not serve to measure whether or not you have the meaning of the professor.

M. Bilbatua: However, in Finland, for example, the sieve that is made to enter the School of Teaching is very hard, but they do not enter because the meaning of the teacher has been measured, but because they have earlier support in schools and have internships. Many of our teachers come from leisure time and I would say that they make more sense than the rest because they have had educational experiences and that influences the development of their abilities.

I. López: It is true that almost everything can be developed, but you quickly realize that there are some teachers who, although at first they have a very small percentage, do not serve to be teachers. What we can do is talk to them and ask them if that's really what they want, but not much more. After all, in the educational system we have, some end up in Magisterium (or in other careers) depending on the selectivity or the choice made by the university itself.

A. Ariznabarreta: Yes, and in relation to all this, we should talk about the social prestige of teaching, comparing it with other countries, about the prestige that we are given here to teachers, but also from within and from us.

What's the jump from training to the center? In order to carry out all that has been said here, what reality does the professor find when he arrives at the center?

M. Bilbatua: I would say that our teachers have a difficult socialization process, because they have to start making substitutions at the end of the career and only consolidate their profession at the end of a long process. Returning to the figure of the reflective teacher, if we were to get future teachers to have this profile, to be able to reflect, to think about alternative strategies, etc., they would have a much easier process. But what happens is that, having not received this training, they somehow question what they learned in the School of Magisterium, because they see other practices and what they have learned is not worth, which is a utopia, which does not correspond to reality. In order to deal with this, our job is to empower critical people, who are able to reflect on what they see.

I. López: It is true that the teachers who have just finished enter the class and are not going to start telling the teacher that they have experience how they are going to do things, but if we really want to train ourselves, it would be best if we put that new teacher in the right models, because we have a lot of the right models. The person with experience would be a complement to the professor we have prepared to be critical and improve, which would be lacking to secure the whole chain, but the latter part of us do not have it.

A. Ariznabarreta: No, we do not have it, because this requires planning and acting differently, and not starting the professionalization of the teacher with the initial replacement phase. But sociological conditions are good, because we know the average age of the people we work in teaching and because in six or seven years, a third of the teachers will be new. As Irene said, we have people with a lot of experience and very suitable to take the tutorization of the professor who comes to the center for the first time, but this implies, among other things, recognizing and valuing this tutorization within its functions.

M. Bilbatua: Yes, you don't do that, but it's possible, and we're on that, to record the classes of those teachers who are the right model. We turned our classes into the analysis of those good models of experience, and those same teachers come to our school to explain their experience. At least that is possible, to reflect on good practice and bring it to school.