The Cuban decrecentist experience and the good living (program of lack of growth and good living in Cuba) is the title of the conference to be held.

This title has not been decided by us, and I think it is not very correct. The concept of growth that is being used here is not used at all in Cuba. There are a few attempts that are taking that path today, but I would talk more about the classic concept of sustainable development than about lack of growth. In other words, economic development linked to social development and balanced from an environmental point of view. Because Cuba needs growth, I think that is obvious. The country ' s economic structure is weak and does not meet the citizens ' objectives at all. They therefore need balanced growth. This objective, at the moment, is fully integrated into its strategy.

So let's talk about sustainable development.

On this subject, two reports have to be mentioned. One of them was carried out in 2008 by the Californian research center Global Footprint Network, which compared the ecological footprint of almost 100 states with the Human Development Index (IMD). After analyzing the results of all countries, Cuba is the only environmentally sustainable environment among those with good HDI. It reaches a high level of human development according to the standards of the United Nations; it has a good or very good level of education in the context of the territories of the Third World; it has good levels of health, literacy... And at the same time, it consumes little energy. Another example is the WWF International Foundation: In the 2009 report, it was noted that Cuba is the only sustainable country in the world.

These data alone give rise to the following debate: Socialism is the model we should all follow?

I would say yes, but Cuba has very peculiar characteristics and we cannot say that its model has to be copied in any other country, it would be absurd. However, it must be borne in mind that the social development that Cuba has achieved, with such low energy expenditure, can only be achieved within the framework of a planned economy. In that sense, I would say yes, sustainable development is only possible through the path of socialism. Capitalism inevitably leads to the collapse of the environment. Socialism can also lead to collapse, even some models of socialism can squander resources, but socialism is the only option to strike a balance with nature. This can only be achieved through rational planning of the economy. The natural tendency of capitalism is totally different.

However, it is likely that Cuba has not chosen by its own will to spend little energy in the country.

When the country suffered the economic disaster of the early 1990s, that is, when the commercial treaties it had with the Soviet Union fell, Cuban society, the Cuban revolution, had to rethink everything. They needed urgently, which forced them to resort to sustainable models, because for decades they were as wasteful an energy as the socialism of Eastern Europe, thanks to the copy of the Soviet model: industrial farming, mechanized, with many chemical fertilizers ... When the situation changed, they learned several lessons. They could not misuse resources, not because of their choice, but because of the lack of resources. But at the same time, in the revolution, in the administration, in the farmers' groups -- opinion groups were created that began to push this process forward from a more philosophical point of view: they began to think that the Cuban production model should become more sustainable.

You say that Cuba needs growth. How do you do that?

They must increase production both in industry and in agriculture. Food sovereignty is a fundamental concept in the search for sustainable development. Cuba is hardly sovereign in food. They import 70 percent of what they eat, but they have thousands of uncultivated hectares. At the moment there is a kind of revolution in agriculture, people have been told that they have to start producing food everywhere.

Also in cities, right?

Yes, food is being produced inside the cities [see Section Net Gertu No. 2.229 of the Light], and at the same time it is trying to get a lot of people back to the countryside to reverse the current situation. And the current situation is that, despite having a land to cultivate, Cuba has to spend thousands and thousands of dollars – getting from tourism or exporting medical services – to buy food. Thousands of people are returning to the countryside in exchange for certain incentives, the state is giving grounds to many people to cultivate them in exchange for kisses, etc.

What is the response of the public?

Look, all of this creates contradiction with one of the historic triumphs of the revolution, that is, with the cultural level reached. Many young people from rural areas have studied at university and did not want to go back to the field. They are now being asked to work the land with oxen and ploughs, because there are not enough tractors.

One obstacle may be one of the historical evils of Cuban socialism: the low attachment of workers to work.

In general, one of the outstanding challenges of socialism is how to combine work in a state company with the concept of serving the country, the community. No country that has tried to build socialism has solved that dilemma. Consequently, the productivity of Cuban workers is very low.

Do they become, so to speak, officials?

Yes. At the moment, in the Congress of the Communist Party, one of the central issues is how to get citizens to have a sense of collective ownership after 50 years, so that they do not feel that the state is not theirs, that it is working for another and that is why they will work as little as possible. Strategies are being developed to combat it. Little by little, because they have not yet done more than the first steps, in many sectors it is moving from traditional state ownership to a cooperative model. Socialism is being redefined.

To what extent can your experiences serve us?

Above all, they serve us to reflect, not so much to copy directly. What is happening in the world and what does Cuba do against the major international currents? Here's the hauser theme. There are also concrete examples that can be used here, such as urban agriculture. That has become a national strategy, and there are already thousands and thousands of people working on it. In other cases, urban areas are destined to self-consumption as a complement to food. In the First World, we could learn a lot from that model.