Joaquim Dolz Mestre (Morella, Catalan Countries, 1957)

PhD in Education Sciences, Professor of Language Teaching and Teacher Training at the University of Geneva. Authors of several books, how many are the courses he has directed, the lectures he has given. One of the smartest experts on multilingual education in Europe. A delicious, showy photographer is the one he usually shows on Facebook; drop by drop, he has a wonderful collection of flowers dedicated to the world.

At one time, in the 80s of the last century, let's say, when it came to language acquisition, researchers were talking about bilingualism. Today, you talk about multilingualism...

Learning to speak in two languages has never been very rare, it's been much weirder, or we've thought it's weirder, knowing how to speak in three or four languages from a very young age. But time has taught us that the reality of the planet is multilingual, and migratory movements have also taught us that in all countries the number of languages is increasing. I work in Geneva and there, at the last college I've visited, surveying the languages the students spoke, and the languages they spoke were 60! This means, of course, that several pupils are learning several languages at once. In Geneva, among the students of my class, no one spoke less than four languages, and the average was to know six languages. In many parts of the world, multilingualism has been imposed, and that is something we take more into account.

It talks about the languages that migrants have taken...

Yes. And I think we don't realize that, because we behave like the languages that migrants bring. And really, those languages are always there, they exist. In Vitoria-Gasteiz there are 250,000 inhabitants today, but the first time I came I was about 150,000. That is to say, those 100,000 are from where or from where, and they have obviously brought their own languages. Still, in Vitoria-Gasteiz, Castilian is the main language, but there is also the Basque language, despite being a minority language, and there are the languages that have come for a long time, because many languages have come. Sometimes, the variety of the language, that is, the Spanish language, because the inhabitants of Latin America do not have the same Spanish language. On the other hand, there are the Maghreb and those from the countries of Eastern Europe... Here you do not have the multilingualism of Geneva, not as great as it is, but the empowerment of many coetaneous languages, in Vitoria, is very alive.

How does the teaching of languages take place in the midst of this linguistic chaos?

Sometimes, anarchic, and others, through more or less appropriate linguistic policies. There is a discipline called glotopolitics that studies the organization of languages at the macro level. We, from the teaching of language teaching, work mainly at the micro level. Our concern is how to organize this language chaos within school, or within the family. The management of the use of languages can always be tried to improve, without a doubt, although neoliberalism says that things move “on their own”. To say that, however, is terrible, because without minimal management, languages are lost, that is to say, part of the heritage of humanity, ours, that of society as a whole, which enriches us children, young people and adults, here and here. Having several languages in Vitoria-Gasteiz in contact with each other is enriching, helps to relate to the outside world and helps not to lose the legacy of the languages that have historically walked here.

What criteria should be used for the proper management of the different languages?

You ask me questions as if you were an expert in linguistic policy, and I am answering you, but on the basis of what I know about language teaching. Management criteria for different languages... On the one hand, the reality must be taken into account. That means, for example, that you have to know what language repertoire people have. And what representation he has of those who are not “of the country.” I would like to say that it is not the same thing to put a family of German or English origin here as a Moroccan family. The taxi driver who brought me to Vitoria-Gasteiz, for example, spoke to me in favor of the migratory wave of Latin American origin, while negatively of Maghreb origin.

Did he give you reasons, arguments?

A moment! The taxi driver himself was originally from Zamora (Spain). That taxi driver sent me the negative representation of the Maghreb, without indicating the reasons for such negativity. The representation of languages, the conception of them as a necessary means for proper management of them. If that is the reality, I know that I have to work on taking scientific reasons and constructing an appropriate representation of all languages, showing that plurilingualism is enriching, both for the individual and for society as a whole. With regard to the individual, also from a cognitive point of view, knowing more than one language helps us to think better for everyone. As for the message to spread to society, I will say loud and clear that knowing two, three, four languages helps us to socialize, it is important that people do not stick or that children play with each other in the school patio. In addition to social peace, multilingualism is important in order to be able to use the languages of the environment on these social networks. Knowing more than one language does no harm, even helps to know better what precedes it. Plurilingualism is essential today, and it is essential to look positively at the multilingualism of people and educational establishments. Another thing is to organize it and organize it is difficult, because the main goal is to learn those languages in school, but if there are 60 languages in school, the workshop is harder.

And so how do you do it when so many languages move around?

If you have 20 Arabic speakers in school, for example, there is no possibility to organize Arabic courses to improve your language level. If you have another group from Serbia or Croatia, the same is about developing the one from home. Following the advice of Europe, we should speak at least three languages: on the one hand, the domestic language or languages; on the other hand, the official language of the country in the country, or the official languages and, finally, the foreign language, or languages. In my opinion, this organisation is possible. What can't be organized in the same way in Vitoria-Gasteiz, Zumaia or Estella? Of course! Moreover, even in Vitoria-Gasteiz, the situation will not be the same in either of the two districts of the city. The basic principle must be that we all learn in Basque, develop Spanish and learn other languages.

But the situation of languages is not the same ...

No! More support will have to be given to some languages, because if they are not properly learned in school they will not be properly learned outside school. Hence comes, for example, the model of immersion. In fact, that is the only thing to immerse oneself: to offer the Basque Country a way forward, a special aid. As we know, immersion does not mean a loss to the Spanish of children, but quite the opposite: it usually gives good results to the learning of Spanish. The system of models here, that of the CAV, allows parents to be schooled in one language or another, and that's a luxury.

What do you mean by that of “pure luxury”?

That this form of choice is very rare in the world, which is only the case with private schools. However, the model that has been worked out here 40 years ago gives families that opportunity and, in this respect, I believe that Basque society must be content and satisfied. Over the years, we've realized that a certain model has developed more deeply than others, because it's yielding better results, and that's where parents are as well.

How should minority language be taught?

Let me warn you that minority processes are, in general, terrifying, and always depend on the situation of each language. For example, I, the first language, the home language, have Catalan. It's closer to Castilian than Euskera, and that approach inevitably gives a fluidity to the original speaking Castilian. The Basque language, for its part, departs more from that Spanish speaker. In addition, this Spanish speaker finds it more difficult to learn German than Catalan. But if that speaker has a negative representation of Catalan, it is useless, although he would easily understand it, there is no remedy. If someone sees Euskera as a peasant language, as a language that serves no purpose, they will hardly be able to learn it. And if you live in Vitoria, for example, you will learn to work harder than if you lived in Zarautz, Azpeitia or Zumaia, because on the streets of these peoples you speak Basque, and not in Vitoria, Bilbao or Donostia. In other words, these situations must be taken into account.

You've been back and forth for years in Euskal Herria. According to what you have seen, what is your “representation”? What progress has the Basque Country made, why not?

Jajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajaajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajaj Ja, ja… We do not always have to pay attention to the indicators, but it is known that, as far as the knowledge of the Basque Country is concerned, for several years very good results have been achieved, both in the Basque Country and in Navarre. In recent years, on the other hand, it seems that something has been relaxed. However, the effort made in this country in favour of languages is exemplary. I started in the 1980s, and until 2006, I felt a great flare and social mobilization, a total commitment, and that helped the Basque people a lot. Now, on the other hand, people are able to say anything about the teaching of languages, the community does not have a responsibility to make the plurilingualism of yesteryear a reality, and that is negative. However, I would like to be prudent, because I am speaking without data and, in any case, I am not going to make a negative reading: the society here has calmed down, the system has also calmed down and it has to be reactivated. Nothing else. For example, the reactivation that has taken place in Valencia (Catalan Countries) is tremendous. The situation was unfortunate, and teachers are now working very enthusiastically.

Teaching staff

"Andereños and professors here at some time were highly valued and now, however, they do not seem to have the valuation they have. And that must also be borne in mind: at present the opinion about schools and teachers is worse and that does not help in the teaching of languages. Without trust in teachers, it's harder to move forward."

Talk

"The first objective of language teaching is its use and its functional character. Secondly, knowing the mechanisms of the language, as it helps to improve its use. The third is knowing the linguistic heritage. It seems fundamental to me to read Bernardo Atxaga, to know the legends, to know when they began to write in Basque… The fundamental thing, always, and more in the case of the Basque Country, is to speak”.

Speech II

"Many old vasco-speakers speak without grammar. They have an implicit grammar, but if you wonder how many phonemes Euskera has, they don't know. Like French, French does not know that it has 21 vocalic phonemes, and yet he speaks perfectly French. The first thing, the important thing, is to speak in Basque, don't miss out."

Last word

Anton Kaifer

"I came here on the occasion of the Basque World Congress in San Sebastian. Then I committed to the Basque Country, with a great personality: Anton Kaifer, unfortunately dead. I came invited by him, and I met the advisors in Euskera, the beginning of the teaching models, the training courses for teachers… Since then, I have followed many excellent theses and research, as well as teaching experiences in both Hegoalde and Iparralde”.