You are two branches of the same tree, but for years you have fought on the same battlefield. When did his militancy begin?

Mikel Martin (M.M. ): My militancy started 42 years ago. I read an article in the journal Punto y Hora de Euskal Herria that made me move a lot inside and it was a milestone. At the same time a group of EHGAM [Movimiento de Liberación Gay-Les del País Vasco] existed in Bizkaia and I contacted its members. A meeting was held in Donostia-San Sebastián, and that was my first meeting. In 1979 they killed the Travesti Francisco Vadillo Santamaria Francis in Errenteria, and a few months later I left the closet.

The creation of EHGAM took place in 1977. A colleague, Antonio, came from Galese and met with one of the group's founders at the fair of Durango, along with Imanol Álvarez. Antonio told Imanol, word by word: Did you know that in the United Kingdom maricas meet to fight for their civil rights? What do you think if we do something here?’ Imanol told him that he saw many difficulties in Euskal Herria, but they went ahead, and until today we have fought.

Pilar Mendibil (P.M.):?I started militating in the feminist movement at the age of 15 at the Women's Assembly in Donostia. Then we created the Feminist Lesbian Collective. In Donostia-San Sebastián there was a nice atmosphere during those years, more than in Bilbao. The people we militated around the Women’s Assembly of Donostia and EHGAM, but EHGAM has always been very male. At the time, lesbians decided that we had to make a few meetings in the Basque Country to decide where we were. In Zamalbide [Errenteria] we celebrated the first feminist meetings of the Basque Country in 1983. There we were lesbian women who participated in the feminist movement and participated in EHGAM. It was then that we decided to create lesbian groups within the feminist movement, and collectives emerged in Bizkaia, Gipuzkoa, Álava and Navarra. We created a coordinator to work together, and for many years, we gave jobs to many.

The women who militated in EHGAM and the feminist movement saw the shortcomings in both movements and decided to organize themselves within the feminist movement in order to theorize the demands. This decision, at times, was not easy. We have to remember that the feminist movement back then was the feminist abortion movement, and we were squeezed a lot. Jokingly, we have said that if we incarnate heterosexuals in another life, all abortions will be paid for by the feminist movement. Our struggle was very difficult, because it was difficult times, and because that was the main demand that the feminist movement had on the street: abortion. It was difficult to accommodate our demands.

What were the milestones and demands of the LGTBI movement in Donostia-San Sebastián?

M.M. : During all these decades the groups have been created by many people, who have contributed their bit to LGTBI liberation. Many of them disappeared. In 1997 the Gehitu group was created in Gipuzkoa. Before, other agents had been fighting for years and we continue to work on the demands we had begun. EHGAM has had ups and downs in terms of militancy intensity, but we are still here.

Here we are. The truth is, I didn't expect it, but here we are. After 42 years in the Maritxu militancy, I'm still here. The words that were very present at the beginning of my militancy were ‘Here we are, and we do not hide’. After 42 years, the motto has a current character.

In 1977, a vindictive platform formed by the gay liberation groups of the Basque Country was created. This platform concretized several demands and today they are still topical issues. Throughout history, heterosexualities have been transmitted through a chain of exploitation and slavery, leaving out of this story homosexuality, both among men and women, as well as transsexuality, intersexuality and bisexuality.

We are obliged, but without rights. These ideas exclude anyone who is not heteronormative, and one of the ways to convey that thought is education. In the phrase ‘Education is the way’ we summed up one of our main axes of struggle. To this day, that claim is yet to be achieved.

Around 1987 there was an explosion of the movement. All the events and activities we organized were very successful. There was an echo reaching out to a lot of people, and those people were very interested in hearing those crickers and those puppets. I remember an activity that we did in the library of the Plaza de la Constitución, the place was filled with people.

In 1985 and in the years that followed, AIDS did a lot of damage to marbles. He was a real oppressor who completely oppressed the movement. It was very painful.

P.M. The disease represented a tremendous setback in the achievements so far achieved through social struggle. In addition, the emotional damage and suffering of the people of the community were brutal. The lesbians we were by our side, at least, we saw it. Although AIDS caused a massacre, I think the peak years of the movement date back to the 1980s.

M.M. : Yes, it was very painful and forced us to step back. In addition, we gradually regained the reduced stigma until then. AIDS became popular as a transmission disease and spread the idea that it only affected people with three H: heroin addicts, homosexuals and hemophiliacs. We have succeeded here, but in many other countries they still have a serious problem.

We know that one person crosses oppression and privilege. As a lesbian woman, how did you live those years?

P.M. Our closet was horrible. We didn't exist, that was our situation. One of our main needs was to get safe spaces, and for that we did a great job. When I was 15, I was going to places in the anbiente to meet lesbians, but today, in Donostia, I wouldn't know where to go if I was that age. Then there were many sites: the cathedral was the place of Maruja, hill hill, Havana, Alboka, etc. You can say that there was a map with the premises of the anbiente, and we knew that if we were there we would be OK. In addition, we had the opportunity to bind in those places.

We were fighting primarily for existence and visibility. We were also making discourses against heterosexuality, of course, but I think back then we were fighting for survival. The closet was suffocating. For example, if you showed up on television at a rally, you could risk staying out of work the next day.

Today, there are a lot of people who don't say what lesbian is, but we've also gotten a very large closet for them.

The change has also been remarkable in the terminology used by the movement.

M.M. : At that time we used the gay name in EHGAM, with an inclusive sense. We didn't just use Gay to name the men they like; we used Gay to name the political movement for sexual liberation, whether lesbian women, transvestites, transsexuals, transgender, etc. After all, we were not heteronormative to define people. There has been a great change in terminology. At present, the sense of naming the collective has been established and the sign ‘+’, a sign of diversity, has been added to the name LGTBIQ.

P.M. When we started militating, many of those terms were unknown. I remember EHGAM saying at the beginning that there were no homosexuals, but homosexual practices. And we exist Lesbians, one of our main slogans. These basic issues today were at the heart of the struggle.

On the Cuesta del globo was the local Malmaison, and there the transvestites went down to the demonstrations to fight with us. It was terrible what we had to live in those demonstrations. However, I believe that the transfeminist group Medeak has been a very important group in Donostia and Euskal Herria, because it has offered a new way of understanding things in the LGTBI struggle and in the feminist movement.

M.M. : Our relationships with trans movement have taught us many things: From Euskal Herria, from Barcelona, from Madrid… They have allowed to give a political dimension to many elements and demands in the last ten or eleven years.

The LGTBI community has lived close to social punishment and repression. How were the first mobilizations in Donostia?

P.M. In my environment, for example, very few of us keep the school crew. Along the way, we have had to form another tribe that has protected us. It is precisely because that adapted tribe has not protected us or satisfied us. We were going to the demonstrations for fear that we might be seen by some acquaintances. A lot of people looked at us, forming up to five rows around us, on the manifestations of the Boulevard. People told us on the street, and they were very quick manifestations, because visibility in public space was very hard. Of course, as long as we did not chase the police.

M.M. : The first demonstration we held in Donostia-San Sebastián aroused great curiosity. A lot of people came to see us, and the Boulevard was so full that we couldn't roll out the banner. Our mobilizations generated a great morb. It was hard to get out in the street because people ran the risk of being identified, and that meant a punishment: being out of work, being thrown at you, etc.

What are the current challenges of the LGTBI movement?

M.M. :?I think things have changed a lot since the 1970s. The demonstration on 28 June last year, for example, was multitudinous and multitudinous on the streets of Bilbao. They were very young and there were a lot of girls. This reminds me of a slogan from the feminist movement: ‘We’re much more than when we started.’ I hope that this energy will be maintained for a long time. We have to keep fighting every day, because what we do not fight for our rights is not going to be fought by anyone.

P.M.:?We have made achievements in terms of visibility, but much remains to be achieved. I think they have created a false patina of equality.

Feminist lesbian collectives have always gone against the social system, flipping the pyramid, but there have been people who have wanted to climb that pyramid. For example, the issue of the legalization of homosexual marriages was a real headache for our movement. We do not opt for that smoke, but, of course, we are in favour, because we cannot accept that a person, being a lesbian, has fewer rights than others. It is very similar, for example, that a Maricon does not have the right to enter the army. I do not think it is fair, but I want to abolish the army. In such situations we have had to achieve very complicated balances and we have always had people around us waiting for a mistake.

Today we have a clear challenge: if dissidents do not arm politically, they are shitty. This is clearly seen with the issue of motherhood and paternity. Part of the LGBTBI community is in favor of surrogate pregnancies, and many billionaire homosexuals are buying their children.

The risk of the system absorbing and assimilating our movement and our demands is high, so we must define the limits of some subjects. Our movement is not to put nice colors here and there. We want individual rights and habitable lives for all people. I think the main challenge of this moment is this:?You have to put an ideological scaffolding to all that force that has become visible.

M.M. : I want to go out to the street every day with my feathers, purpurpurines and paintings, and not just on June 28. For that, and for happiness to reach everyone in the same way, we have to revolutionize the structures of the binary system. This system adopts some of the demands of our movement, shapes them in their image and in their way. Many presidents are placed next to a banner once a year and sleep quietly every night. But that doesn't help us.

You see the future dark…

P.M. In Euskal Herria we are fortunate that, because of the reality of our people and the anti-fascist nature of the popular movements, we have, in part, managed to prevent the commodification of the movement, but nevertheless, that trend exists. In Madrid, for example, it is very evident, and in this regard ‘critical pride’ is being created. I would like to underline that in Euskal Herria, thanks to the work of the feminist movement, it has been possible to lay the right political foundations, and that, even today, we are sewing the speeches in a very appropriate way.

M.M. I'm optimistic. In the last two years, a young movement is emerging that is clear that this LGTBI normalizing and assimilating movement that we have mentioned is not the right path. That critical view is very hopeful to me. I'm excited Proud! It's the creation of the platform, because ideologically they're putting all of these issues on the table. Precisely because they are facing this pink capitalist assimilationism.