How did you find the village when you come back?

In general, I found it right. I didn't expect to grow that way and bring the most remote neighborhoods together. I'm from San Jose and at the time we thought we weren't part of the village. Today everything is much more integrated. Of course, there are still inequalities, because urbanism cannot balance social inequalities.

However, for example, the park is very important. It's a meeting point in this impersonal world, and I see that there are places of contact.

I have received a great deal of attention and I appreciate that urbanism takes account of the needs of the elderly or the population with shortages.

And from people?

I had a picture of a lot of people in my head, unchanged. In other cases, seeing how my body has changed, I imagined how I could change yours. Overall, I've had a hard time updating my memory.

As I have lived in exile, I have tried not to always have Amurrio in the head, otherwise it is very difficult to go ahead. I have raised all my memories and linked them to the present reality.

I have to say that I was struck by the use of Euskera on the street. I won't say it's multitudinous, but it's important. When I left the people there was not much talk. It was a nice surprise. I remember that 35 years ago Euskera could not be used in such a free way. For example, there was a friend of Tolosa who spoke in Basque in Amurrio and they all called him “The Basque”. In addition, on more than one occasion we went to find professors of Euskera and some did not want to come.

Why have you decided to go back now?

First of all, we got used to thinking that we wouldn't come back, but we wanted to come back if circumstances allowed. I got my passport back a couple of years ago, because I had nothing. So I couldn't leave Venezuela.

We, the deportees, did not decide to go to Algeria or Venezuela. We had to go for our political work and if we have the opportunity to build the republic of Euskal Herria, we will return. Not only by desire, it is also a duty.

We have lived a lifetime with our activities and their consequences and I will return to Amurrio at the age of 60. I must start from scratch, I've been out, I don't have anything... Living in Venezuela is difficult, but doing so here is not going to be easy either.

The truth is that I will not fully start, for I will have the help of my friends and family. But I will have to address a number of issues that have been won by people of my age. Still, my children will have the protection that surrounds them and I will be quieter.

Because I have a family in Venezuela. My wife is from here and my children are from there as well. Everyone is educated to live in Venezuela, but the situation has worsened and the problem is not only economic. Security is also a responsibility, and it is unthinkable that my daughters go through Caracas peacefully, as they do here.

I can't close my kids at home, they have to go to school and do other things, and that's a permanent distress. Venezuela is being crushed in the United States, and that will necessarily influence the future of my children.

All this does not detract from the fact that we say a terrible love to Venezuela. We have experienced terrible moments of love and fraternity and often felt that we were there to contribute to transformation, for the benefit of the people. If I were to continue in Venezuela, my life would also make sense.

35 years ago you became a refugee, how did that happen?

I was a lucky one. They hit me a lot, and a friend's father told me what had happened to him. That's why I fled.

For a while I took refuge in the underground, I couldn't get out into the street and I was almost alone. It was a very complicated time and the armed group GAL was active. It was very hard, but I had time to learn French.

Then the state gave me the documentation to stay in several departments in France. However, the provinces bordering the Basque Country or the Spanish State were prohibited. So, I lived in Poitiers. It was a cosmopolitan and college city. It served as the basis for deportation.

What was deportation like?

On 3 October 1987, coinciding with the end of my birthday, a raid took place in France in which a large number of people were arrested. My team was sent to Algeria.

The Basque political refugees did not have legal status, they did not give us recognition, and yet I had the sub-status: deported. They left us totally homeless.

We spent 2 years in Algeria. I am not going to say a bad word against the people or the government of Algeria. We have very nice memories of solidarity, but our ability to move was very limited, despite having housing, work, etc.

So we were there until the situation got worse. The Spanish State was pressed by gas, among other things, and there was a multilateral agreement. Some of the deportees were sent to Cape Verde, others to the Dominican Republic and the largest group to Venezuela.

How did all these movements influence you?

I came to Venezuela badly. Being in a country that showed us solidarity, I thought we were protected against the enemy, but that was not the case and they moved us to the will of the Spanish State. This inspired me to think about insecurity and uncertainty, and I was a little depressed.

For example, we were carrying all our assets in a backpack -- clothing and a little more. Despite getting a job in Venezuela, for a long time I didn't get rid of the backpack, I just got the essentials, because I thought they would move us back and forth.

Yes, life makes its way and the deportees of Euskal Herria create a family or something. The influence of our political struggle united us abroad. It was therefore necessary to go a little further in order to help colleagues and not to burden others.

So I understood and internalized that I was in the new society and that I had to adapt to live there.

How do you value your trajectory?

I started in politics 40 years ago, and in particular, I did what I thought was right. I did it in very precarious conditions, because everything was about to be done.

Today the responsibilities are more divided: the fight against pensions, women, the districts, the Basque country... At that time, Amurrio was asleep, and he had to turn it on. The people had to be rebuilt, but not only with the houses built. You had to change your mind. Others have to assess the extent to which the germ of what I did was. However, I now hope to enjoy the fruit of these seeds.

I started working in my neighborhood, with young people and kids from there, in the sports and mountain fields. I never told them about politics. My intention was to grow empowered men to look to the future.

This makes me very proud. Now I see you and I am glad that you are parents and that most have nothing to do with drugs. It makes sense of what has been done and relieves what has been suffered. At that time the problem of heroin was very serious and in order to deal with it, young people had to be oriented towards the future, to give them hope and to train them as people.

There are now different times, we have to restructure ourselves in order to meet the objectives. To begin with, we must unite the friends and colleagues who have been distributed, even if the same is thought of. Political divergences cannot fall into the personal realm and unity is fundamental.

We have to close the book of our struggle, and for that we must involve all the people; refugees, prisoners and deportees. It must be a priority.

What has happened in the last 40 years has made the current situation possible. The Gernika Statute has not been developed and the old counterparty does not exist. We need people to put more weight on the scale, and on that we are all important, to write our history with sovereignty.

We have laid seeds for this, and we have to take care of them. We have to walk together, because the state is undoing itself. We've had four elections in a very short space of time, and that's not just because of personal issues, but because the system fails. Greece, Spain, Italy and Portugal are very committed and have difficulty in structuring states. Not only is Pedro Sánchez and Pablo Iglesias not adapting, but it is changing the world and it is going to get worse.

As we have said, a chapter of our history has been completed and we have to write a new one among all of us. The struggle will be different, but we have to be clear that capitalism is moving forward. As we speak, a few earn money and more and more people will be out of the system. But in our struggle there is no one left. In this context, we Basques have to own our future and in 15 years everything can change a lot.

Venezuela is, in any case, a permanent state of world news.

Yeah, I spent the first 10 years in IV. The Republic. They were neoliberal governments and the economic crisis was very big. Then I lived the arrival of Comandante Chávez and the 20-year-old Bolivarian Revolution.

I have lived through the two eras and learned that if there is political and ideological will, situations that are impossible to change can be transformed: giving inclusion and training to the poor, empowering ...

With Chávez I saw that Venezuela was improving, that the enormous wealth that the country has was better distributed... In this context, we identify and integrate more. At that time, I had the feeling that maybe I would spend my whole life in Venezuela.

We are still in a precarious situation of documentation, even if it is something, but we were always missing some role. Every time the police identified us, we had to give a lot of explanations, and in the end, we only identified ourselves in front of the police.

In the Western media, much criticism has been levelled at the Government of Venezuela, how have you lived through Chávez’s legislatures?

We saw that a meaningful social welfare system was achieved. We have also experienced that a “socialist” system of this kind – although not socialism – attracts the rage of imperialism.

There has been constant activity to sabotage government and state infrastructures. Every time there is a problem, they say that government has no capacity or that socialism is not worth it.

Was there a big difference between neoliberal governments and the Chavists?

Yes. First of all, Chavism made an effort for inclusion. The first poor thought that the elections had nothing to do with them. Schools were only in the wealthiest neighborhoods, in the plain neighborhoods.

The crowd is concentrated in Caracas. At the time of neoliberal governments many were thrown into the city because of the increase in oil, leaving livestock or agriculture. It became an economy linked to the port of Caracas, where oil was taken out and food, machinery was returned...

They stopped producing and the domestic economy of Venezuela changed radically. I used to export food, and now the opposite is happening. So he went to live in the mountains of Caracas. In the mountains around them they made their houses precarious.

This led to shocking contradictions. In the plain environments, people lived with money and demonstrated their economic capacity. In the surroundings, however, there were humble classes. Even though the Venezuelans are calm and welcoming, that created a climate of conflict, because the contradictions were very obvious. Chavism incarnated that discomfort.

In fact, before Chávez arrived, the wealth generated by the economy was distributed among a few; the work was very precarious, without protection, on the street...

On the contrary, the Bolivarian Republic distributed the budgets among all social classes. Their investments were aimed, first of all, at the periphery, at the poor. As a result, peaceful changes have been made for the benefit of the majority. If not because of the birth of Chavism, a violent uprising in Venezuela is most likely to occur.

Social class clashes began to occur. For example, when we arrived in the 1980s, there was a rise in prices. In one week, more than 3,000 deaths were recorded, resulting from police and military repression in the country. At that time, only 30% of the population voted.

Chavez's policies were very successful until 2009, when they got the support of a large number of citizens and reduced the poverty rate.

At the international level, Chavez also created a new geopolitics based on energy. It was organized with Brazil, Ecuador or Argentina. Those alliances have fallen over time, because in Brazil, for example, Bolsonaro is the president.

In any event, the intervention of the United States has been disastrous, as Venezuela is, in its view, a bad model for neighbouring countries.

How has Venezuela stayed after the death of Hugo Chavez?

After the death of the commander, Maduro took the witness and all the movements that had been organized against Chávez have been directed against him. It has given the measure, but it has not had a break from the start. At times, it has been handed over by some sectors in the Chavismo environment.

Why did the Right win the National Assembly? Because millions of Chavists didn't come to vote.

The United States has been assisted by the Venezuelan opposition, which is wholly stateless. The majority have dual nationality and prefer the state to go to the devil if they do not command. Guaidó is an example of this. It is signing without any power documents that deliver all the assets to the United States.

Because Venezuela is not any country. As raw materials and oil discoveries run out, Venezuela has incredible reserves: gold, diamonds, coltan, bauxite, aluminum... And you don't have to make mines, they're on the surface. Whoever controls Venezuela will be untouchable in the future.

Aware of this, Chávez established connections with Russia and China, with which Venezuela has counteracted the imperialism of the United States. It has also had a good relationship with Iran and India. India, for example, sends drugs.

Venezuela is a besieged castle at the moment and there are few products that overcome the blockade. We have been so for 7 years and the situation is difficult.

How does this reflect on the lives of ordinary people?

At Chavez ' s time, the pension of a retired person residing abroad amounted to approximately $1,200. It's currently $2, and with the lockdown, you can't get out.

1,200 dollars will be little for one here, but in Venezuela electricity or gasoline is hugely cheap. With what is paid here for a liter of petrol, I can guarantee consumption there for a year.

In any case, getting commodities is very difficult and when you get them they're very expensive. The first products missing were those related to women's hygiene, which played a major role in the revolution.

The intention is to punish the humble classes to end Chavism. In fact, they have not managed to get hold of the army, as they are present in all the works of civil life: they collaborate with the councils of the lavabos, they carry water...

In addition, there is tremendous inflation; the government has had to remove eight zeroes from the currency and we are the same. When I returned to Amurrio, I was surprised that I paid with few euros. In Venezuela everything is worth tens of thousands of bolivars and week after week everything is more expensive.

Access to basic services is becoming more and more difficult and there is constant sabotage in the electricity grid.

Chavism achieved well-being and life in Venezuela was pleasurable, even among those who have historically been poor. In culture, a great effort was also made to train the lower classes; books were invested to make them almost free and poor students have small free computers in public education, but their maintenance is becoming more and more difficult to maintain.